Do You Think The Level Of Pro Passing Error Is Enough?

[sneaky77]

the only good thing, is that at least with the implementation of manual leaderboards it gives the people that want to play in a more hardcore way a better way to try to get more games. And gives people an incentive to move to manual since it may be easier to find games now.

 

[tm1985]

Cheers 'TM'

Fully agree. I think EA are going to have to make those tweaks to combat pingpong; I just worry that they'll either make the already far too slow passes slower again. Surely it's plain to see that they need to make passes less controlled, not more.

lol, you make it look like i'm undercover here. it's my gamertag

I just think that if pro passing was the answer to ping pong, then as it stands, it hasn't worked. I will say, and I hope that Nick will agree, that when we got the chance to play on friday, it was much more pronounced with lower league teams than we saw in the demo build with high rated teams.

The obvious issue with this is that ping pong passing was only ever an problem online. Seeing as i rarely played against anyone but a 5 star team online in fifa10, then it's done very little to address the issue.

unless there is some hidden incentive i havent seen that means everyone is going to play as derby online this year?

 

[Rodelero]

The problem is, Pro Passing should be more than just a fix to PPP anyway. PPP is hardly the only thing wrong with the passing anyway. Pro Passing should solve the whole problem with passing, not just the stupid first time passes.

 

[Rodelero]

Do any of you guys have any particularly good videos which show off the problem? I have a few just want to make sure there aren't any better ones. Thanks.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Problem with this poll, it's sort of like preaching to the choir, if you know what I mean. Even if EA can make changes after release, any reason to believe they'll listen to us?

Also, is there ANY directional error with PP? Or is the only "bad" result a slower, bobbling pass?

The problem is, Pro Passing should be more than just a fix to PPP anyway. PPP is hardly the only thing wrong with the passing anyway. Pro Passing should solve the whole problem with passing, not just the stupid first time passes.

Should it? I'd think it's just a start, only one part of the equation, the other part - or at least one other part - being realistic first touch.

One thing that may need to be considered is what happens when the error that a more realistic first touch would bring is added to the error from PP. Would EA then tune down PP error because adding first touch error on top of PP error would be considered too much error? Might EA have the foresight to expect this, and so are accordingly hesitant to go too far with PP error?

 

[tm1985]

Would EA then tune down PP error because adding first touch error on top of PP error would be considered too much error?

Almost certainly. It's completely obvious that they won't go down any routes that will alienate the casual market, which sucks for people like me and you who want more from the game, but it does kind of make sense from a sales standpoint.

The problem is, where is the balance in all this? what's the solution that keeps everyone happy? Someone is going to end up with their nose out of joint, and it's going to be the minority.

 

[Nick Cave]

Almost certainly. It's completely obvious that they won't go down any routes that will alienate the casual market, which sucks for people like me and you who want more from the game, but it does kind of make sense from a sales standpoint.

The problem is, where is the balance in all this? what's the solution that keeps everyone happy? Someone is going to end up with their nose out of joint, and it's going to be the minority.

A way of getting to the bones of the game is I think the only way we will see the game move our way in any great leap, EA may continue to trickle the game more to the Sim we want but as everyone knows they will never risk there core base of sales. Maybe sliders,even if they don't prove to be perfect has to be the next option...

 

[Rodelero]

Problem with this poll, it's sort of like preaching to the choir, if you know what I mean. Even if EA can make changes after release, any reason to believe they'll listen to us?

Not necessarily, but why should that stop us? They've implemented live patching so they can deal with problems - and we can show them a problem which is pretty large. If we manage to get EA to change things, that's obviously great, but if we don't, that's also worthwhile - because it tells us something important.

The danger, is not that EA don't listen, the danger is that the official forum rejects the premise. For instance, listen to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7reaBOHqd0c&hd=1#t=2m55s

Mainly listen to what they say - don't just watch what happens. This is the main problem we have. For me, if we manage to be succesful in the community I'm happy. If we get EA to change the game, I'm extremely happy and we'll be able to go further in other directions with similar things hopefully.

The more we push the issues, the better.

 

[sneaky77]

I think assisted passing will never go as far as you guys want it to go. The whole nature of assisted means it will correct the direction for you.

On Semi, I have missed passes by putting them too far ahead or behind or too soft. so I think it works, I think it can be improved. But I don't think is as terrible as is made out to be.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Lately I've been more worried about the impact of PP on the CPU - even in games I dominate the CPU rarely drops below 90 percent accuracy!

I think there's actually a fundamental flaw at work here - defending in FIFA is all about tackling and stealing the ball away, often by barging through players, however IRL changes in possession frequently occur from bad passes, poor first touch, interceptions, etc. But because FIFA's defensive AI is not evolved enough, tackling is over emphasized, thus passing accuracy is unrealistically high and changes in possession occur mostly from high pressure tackling. Just a theory.

 

[Rodelero]

Yep, but so many on the forum just do not get it. Frankly, I've been able to hit 95% passing rates easily on assisted against Legendary. That is ridiculous when you're playing against a good team - and almost EVERY 'pass' which misses is a cross, freekick, corner, or somewhere where the game chooses the wrong pass or the wrong player.

Assisted is still a boring, unrealistic, and annoying experience - but it's still also too effective. EA don't get the assist/semi/manual problem, nor do they get the passing problem, and frankly, most of the community don't get it either - and it's killing FIFA as a game.

The stupidity of people on the forum makes me despair.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Yep, but so many on the forum just do not get it. Frankly, I've been able to hit 95% passing rates easily on assisted against Legendary. That is ridiculous when you're playing against a good team - and almost EVERY 'pass' which misses is a cross, freekick, corner, or somewhere where the game chooses the wrong pass or the wrong player.

Assisted is still a boring, unrealistic, and annoying experience - but it's still also too effective. EA don't get the assist/semi/manual problem, nor do they get the passing problem, and frankly, most of the community don't get it either - and it's killing FIFA as a game.

The stupidity of people on the forum makes me despair.

I just finished a game in which both mine and the CPU's passing accuracy was above 95%, and though it's just a demo and maybe those averages would be lower in a longer game - not sure why though - I agree that's ridiculous.

But I'm not so sure EA don't "get" the problem as much as whether or not they care, or whether or not they see it as an actual problem to begin with. It's hard for me to imagine there hasn't been a discussion in the EA studios, where at some point or another a dev brought up the issue - "hey, you guys notice how high passing accuracy is in the game, shouldn't we do something about that?"

My guess would be they don't see it as a problem - it's a problem to us, but once again we're the "hardcore" minority. It's only a problem if the majority of their customer base consider it a problem, which for us... is the problem.

 

[sneaky77]

Assisted is still a boring, unrealistic, and annoying experience - but it's still also too effective. .

Yes it is.. so why are you playing assisted and then complaining about the effectiveness?

The whole notion of assisted as laid out by EA is that corrects everything for you.

Assisted should really be Semi, they should scrap assisted as they have it now and change it to the semi settings, and then they can just have assisted controls, which would be the current semi, or manual.

But I don't get the complaining of assisted, when they tell you right away that it will basically play the game for you.

 

[Rob92]

Yes it is.. so why are you playing assisted and then complaining about the effectiveness?

The whole notion of assisted as laid out by EA is that corrects everything for you.

Assisted should really be Semi, they should scrap assisted as they have it now and change it to the semi settings, and then they can just have assisted controls, which would be the current semi, or manual.

But I don't get the complaining of assisted, when they tell you right away that it will basically play the game for you.

When you play online in modes where you can't filter the control settings (i.e. Clubs), your opponents will be a massive advantage and be able to do things they shouldn't...

The CPU seems to use "assisted", so if it's too accurate then the AI will pass the ball around unrealistically...

Oh, and the game should still be realistic/balanced on assisted (not that it's realistic on manual anyway), PES has "assisted" passing but I wouldn't be able to do some of the ridiculous stuff you can do on Fifa...

 

[mfmaxpower]

When you play online in modes where you can't filter the control settings (i.e. Clubs), your opponents will be a massive advantage and be able to do things they shouldn't...

The CPU seems to use "assisted", so if it's too accurate then the AI will pass the ball around unrealistically...

Oh, and the game should still be realistic/balanced on assisted (not that it's realistic on manual anyway), PES has "assisted" passing but I wouldn't be able to do some of the ridiculous stuff you can do on Fifa...

^^What he said.

The problem is the unrealistic advantage assisted settings gives the opposition. If you want the game to be easy, play it on amateur difficulty settings. Whether it's the CPU I'm playing or a real person, they shouldn't be able to complete 95 percent of their passes on a regular basis playing with Stoke City!

 

[Rodelero]

Yes it is.. so why are you playing assisted and then complaining about the effectiveness?

The whole notion of assisted as laid out by EA is that corrects everything for you.

Assisted should really be Semi, they should scrap assisted as they have it now and change it to the semi settings, and then they can just have assisted controls, which would be the current semi, or manual.

But I don't get the complaining of assisted, when they tell you right away that it will basically play the game for you.

The whole notion of assisted should no longer be, according to what they said Pro Passing was, a setting where EA corrects everything for you.

For reference - I am a manual gamer - but assisted affects me horribly.

 

[sneaky77]

When you play online in modes where you can't filter the control settings (i.e. Clubs), your opponents will be a massive advantage and be able to do things they shouldn't...

I agree with this, 100% I have been bringing this up in the EA forums before in fact.

But the only solution imo to this, is what I said that Semi should be the default controls, and assisted should go away and be no more.

If they are gonna have assisted, it should be not be available for ranked games online, wether clubs or ranker 1v1, because like you guys say, it requires little skill to build up play with it.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I agree with this, 100% I have been bringing this up in the EA forums before in fact.

But the only solution imo to this, is what I said that Semi should be the default controls, and assisted should go away and be no more.

If they are gonna have assisted, it should be not be available for ranked games online, wether clubs or ranker 1v1, because like you guys say, it requires little skill to build up play with it.

I'm a little confused - you're for getting rid of assisted controls but against adding more error with PP?

Because if you're all for semi controls but find more PP error too difficult, couldn't you go back to assisted, correct?

Not really following your logic.

 

[sneaky77]

Re: Re: Do You Think The Level Of Pro Passing Error Is Enough?

I'm a little confused - you're for getting rid of assisted controls but against adding more error with PP?

Because if you're all for semi controls but find more PP error too difficult, couldn't you go back to assisted, correct?

Not really following your logic.

Sorry.
Yes I'm in favor of getting rid of assisted as it is now and making semi the default. To me it sounds as if You guys want the same thing cause if you add more error to pp in assisted then it really becomes semi.
I just think That the concept of assisted to ea is making it fool proof so no skills are required but then They should limit it to amateur difficulty and not allowed in any ranking online. So That's why I said assisted as is described in the game works as intended.

Sorry if my way of explaining What I mean is confusing

Edit: this may be a better way to explain. I have no issues with assisted cause I understand ea trying to get people with less skill or young kids playing the game. But it should be offline only. Or online only on unranked matches maybe. But anything ranked should be semi assisted as default and allow any kind of semi assisted and manual mix of control.

 

[Rodelero]

That's great and all, but whilst assisted IS online and always WILL be online from every hint we have from EA, then we need to change assisted to be realistic.

 

[sneaky77]

Re: Re: Do You Think The Level Of Pro Passing Error Is Enough?

That's great and all, but whilst assisted IS online and always WILL be online from every hint we have from EA, then we need to change assisted to be realistic.

We are really arguing the same thing cause if They change assisted it would really be more like semi assisted.

Now why are manual through balls so damn underpowered.

 

[mfmaxpower]

We are really arguing the same thing cause if They change assisted it would really be more like semi assisted.

Now why are manual through balls so damn underpowered.

Yes I doubt you'll find many on this forum that wouldn't love to see assisted get the axe, or at least no longer be the default.But like Rod said, there's little indication assisted isn't here to stay.

Both ground passes are really underpowered in the demo, IMO. If something isn't done I may need to switch to semi for regular ground passes cause right now it's killing my buildup play. I'd be totally screwed if it weren't for the brilliant new bouncing lob pass.

 

[sneaky77]

Semi is also quite underpowered or at least feels that way for ground passes I haven't touched assisted so I'm not sure if there is a difference.

 

[winston]

When you play online in modes where you can't filter the control settings (i.e. Clubs), your opponents will be a massive advantage and be able to do things they shouldn't...

The CPU seems to use "assisted", so if it's too accurate then the AI will pass the ball around unrealistically...

Oh, and the game should still be realistic/balanced on assisted (not that it's realistic on manual anyway), PES has "assisted" passing but I wouldn't be able to do some of the ridiculous stuff you can do on Fifa...

The cpu absolutely is assisted in passing, so going manual yourself againt the cpu is an exercise in masochism. It's like playing a game where there are two laws of physics, one when you have the ball (slow, imprecise, laboured), and one where the cpu has the ball (high speed, error free nonsense).

Passing, tackling, and the instant reactions of the cpu are the main things that ruin this game.

To be honest, in terms of playing against the cpu, I doubt they can fix it. An error prone cpu just isn't built into the design of the AI model, so I can't see them even trying to bolt on a fix.

But they could so something about human v human matches. Agree with comments that assisted could be toned down and still playable by nobs.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Having played the demo, I would say another aspect they need to tweak is the range from the powerbar. Full power is still too weak, and playing the game without the powerbar actually gives you some reasonable zip when passing. It just plays better imo, as you are not constantly hitting underpowered passes.

But the main issue is EA just not getting to the fundemental problems of the game. It's been small botch jobs because they seem unwilling, unable to get the core right. Playing manual, or with the powerbar on with assisted/semi, shouldn't mean you are handicapped by slower passing or more, or less error from stats. It should be that the only difference is aim, but they seem to have missed this and have tried to patch it up with the powerbar being quite a poorly implemented tweak imo.

Turning the powerbar off has enabled me to pass the ball about with a decent speed but the error that occurs is down to poor player positioning, poor decisionmaking on my part and general quality of passing because of player stats. If I use the powerbar, how it is now, I'm only being unfairly handicapped by every pass being too slow, whilst the cpu can pass at a normal speed. They should have it that when you hit the marker you get a nice pass that has zip, to low it slows down to how they are now, and too much power means the ball goes beyond the reciever and/or it bounces too much so control is screwed up and/or it actually has directional error. I find it unbelieveble that they have made the passing to not contain directional error. Shocking really, and really makes you think they don't want to change the game in any meaningfull way.

I'm expecting every release from now to be FIFA10 but with some tweak here and there to make it play slightly differently from the last without actually changing, improving anything.

 

[mfmaxpower]

The cpu absolutely is assisted in passing, so going manual yourself againt the cpu is an exercise in masochism. It's like playing a game where there are two laws of physics, one when you have the ball (slow, imprecise, laboured), and one where the cpu has the ball (high speed, error free nonsense).

Passing, tackling, and the instant reactions of the cpu are the main things that ruin this game.

To be honest, in terms of playing against the cpu, I doubt they can fix it. An error prone cpu just isn't built into the design of the AI model, so I can't see them even trying to bolt on a fix.

But they could so something about human v human matches. Agree with comments that assisted could be toned down and still playable by nobs.

God I hope you're wrong 'cause I mostly play against the CPU and right now the stuff you've described is close to being a gamebreaker for me. But I don't see why they couldn't increase PP for the CPU and decrease its tackling effectiveness, but I don't really have a clue about this stuff so I guess I'm just praying and talking out my ass.

Having played the demo, I would say another aspect they need to tweak is the range from the powerbar. Full power is still too weak, and playing the game without the powerbar actually gives you some reasonable zip when passing. It just plays better imo, as you are not constantly hitting underpowered passes.

But the main issue is EA just not getting to the fundemental problems of the game. It's been small botch jobs because they seem unwilling, unable to get the core right. Playing manual, or with the powerbar on with assisted/semi, shouldn't mean you are handicapped by slower passing or more, or less error from stats. It should be that the only difference is aim, but they seem to have missed this and have tried to patch it up with the powerbar being quite a poorly implemented tweak imo.

It's interesting you brought up aim because from the beginning, though I never bothered to mention it, I always thought PP was a little backwards - I was hoping they'd focus on adding more error/difficulty to aim rather than to weighting passes. The main reason for this is, at least from my experience playing manual controls, I always felt the length of time it takes to properly power-up for a strong ground pass created an unrealistic disadvantage. I don't think aim should be the only difference though, it just needs to play a bigger role imo.

The thing is, a single pass involves two players, and as long as EA only focus on the front end of the pass and ignore the other end (first touch/ball control) we'll remain without a realistic passing system.

And I agree about the range of the power bar - it's way too weak at the moment. Maybe EA are intending the new bouncing lob pass to replace longer ground passes? For manual controls it seems like it'd be so easy to fix the situation - just increase the strength of either through pass or ground pass, and then you actually have a reason to use one or the other (one for short, one for longer passes!).