Arsenal Thread

[Jumbo_]

I'm not trying to put anyone in their place. Me and Gerd get on.

EDIT: Just seen Ryan's post. Nicely put.

No it's because it's not done on anything like the same level, i.e. as frequently as Man Utd. How many other premier league teams have done it so frequently that a major pan-European sports channel publishes an article about it ? (See the Eurosport article in my previous post)

Indeed - it's not done anything like as frequently by other teams, as I say when you can pull out major media articles discussing other teams doing this repeatedly (I dont mean some blog written by a half-wit) then you might have an arguement.

Like I said, all teams do it, it's just highlighted more when we do. If you think not then you should start watching more football and spend less time reading tabloid match reports.

The entire premise of the eurosport article is to incite and provoke people, playing up to a common idea. The person who compiled it was so pleased with their work they decided not to put their name to it. A sure sign of a decent bit of writing.

He blew before Everton took the shot when they were 25m out from the Man Utd goal see the daily Mirror or Daily Post Quotes here not after the save.

Well I watched the match, from the sounds of it you didn't. The referee did blow the whistle but nobody actually heard it and play continued. Everton broke into our area and Jagielka shot but it was saved by VdS. That's when everyone realised it was over. If he'd have scored there'd be even more commotion but as it was, he didn't.

Didn't see this on Match of the Day, do you have a link to it, as there is no mention of it here nor here, so was it really that much of a major contentious decision ?

I've got the whole match on my laptop, it happened bang on 20mins if that's any help. I've found a small mention of it here at 21mins.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/oct/30/manchester-united-tottenham-hotspur-live
I suppose it's not really a contentious decision as it didn't result in a goal, but it easily could have so that's besides the point. If Gomes had've kicked or thrown the ball after he'd picked it up then Nani wouldn't have scored so it's just the same.

The Huth handball was 50-50 at best, it was more ball to hand than deliberate, so it could easily be deemed no penalty. Interesting you bring up the Stoke game, as I was going to use Neville not getting a red card as an example of yet another uneven decision, two years ago in the same fixture Wilkinson was sent off for a challenge that was in no way worse than Neville's 2nd.

It was still a handball, no more or less contentious than many other incidents. Neville's first yellow was farcical, which is probably why Mariner didn't book him the 2nd time. Wilkinson spent the entire game kicking Ronaldo and eventually got sent off, it wasn't just one foul. Incidentally, the media made more out of the fact a prone Ronaldo flicked a boot at Wilkinson after being floored for the umpteenth time than the fact Wilkinson was on the pitch just to kick a more skilled opponent into submission. Anti-football at it's best.

For the Torres one your defenders leg went out and tripped him, is was almost identical to the Spector / Giggs tackle from the West Ham game in August when you got a pen, not really a conentious decision.

I said the freekick, not the penalty. I've no arguments with the penalty.

4 of them are hardly noteworthy, not mentioned in major news reports, even the Evra one is more of a function of the inability of Marriner to control the game.

They're no less noteworthy than your ones, the fact they weren't reported kinda proves my point doesn't it?

There are plenty, the likes of Trappatoni, Hiddink, Ramon Diaz, Javier Aguirre, Gurban Berdiyev, Hitzfeld, Carlos Bianchi, even Sven Eriksson are all managers who have won considerable trophies but have never been as hypocritical or as derogatory as him. Let's face it saying surrounding a ref is "typically German" is borderline racism.

Ok so it boils down to a hatred of SAF.

I'm just gonna leave it there, we're clearly not going to agree. I genuinely didn't think you'd be so easily swayed by the awful tabloid journalism in this country and hysterical fan-provoking media solely aimed at creating controversy and making them money, as I said you seem above all that.

 

[PLF]

If Arsenal win today, I'll be f'n impressed!

Don't see it though. I predict a draw or win for the home side. Shakhtar really want revenge and feel the final score was too harsh in reverse fixture. History is not on Arsenal's side in terms of visits to Ukraine either but anything can happen in football of course. Looking forward to what should be an entertaining and more competitive match I think.

 

[BobbyBox]

If Arsenal win today, I'll be f'n impressed!

Don't see it though. I predict a draw or win for the home side. Shakhtar really want revenge and feel the final score was too harsh in reverse fixture. History is not on Arsenal's side in terms of visits to Ukraine either but anything can happen in football of course. Looking forward to what should be an entertaining and more competitive match I think.

Alot of our main players aren't going to play, Fab, Song, Arshavin etc.

And with our previous record over their, I am not that positive. But lets wait and see

It would be great to get the win and not have to worry about qualifying in the next few months.

We certainly have players that are capable of winning tonight, but it's whether they play well or not.

 

[PLF]

Yeah those players missing along with record and Shakhtar being up for this with main players, home crowd, etc. are the reasons I've put $30 on them to get the victory.

Arsenal can do it, but yah I'm not expecting a victory. A loss is more like it. A draw would be a very good result.

On the other hand if Wenger manages to clinch 3 points there, then this is truly a team everyone must now stand up and respect and I'll be the first one to be impressed.

 

[bebo]

clichy very sloppy ! I`m not sure Shakhtar wanted revenge they were the better team but they did more time wasting near the end. A team that wants to make a statement goes for the juggler .

 

[PLF]

Yeah that's how I kinda expected this match to go. No real surprises.

And back when groups were announced I remember saying Eduardo will come back to score against Gunners, just didn't know it would be in both matches and so decisive!

Class player.

 

[jonneymendoza]

useless idiots. btw, diddnt barcelona play and lost or draw in that ground last season>?

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Like I said, all teams do it, it's just highlighted more when we do. If you think not then you should start watching more football and spend less time reading tabloid match reports.

I don't really see how the number of matches I've been to is really especially relevant. However since you ask, I've been to over 20 matches in the last 6 months (actually been to as in went to the stadium), which is nearly a match a week, so even if match attendance was relevant it's diffcult to see how I could go to more games.

As you're probably going to ask how I went to this many matches, here is the list: Charlton v Swindon, Inter v Bayern (CL), England v Mexico, Holland v Japan (WC), Australia v Serbia (WC), Ivory C v North Korea (WC), Argentina v Mexico (WC), Holland v Slovakia (WC), Japan v Parag (WC), Holland v Brazil (WC), Argentina v Germany (WC), Watford v Leeds, Fulham v Wolves, Tranmere v Colchester, Arsenal v Braga, Chelsea v Marseille, Arsenal v Shakhtar, Ireland v Russia, Fulham v Spurs, Arsenal v West Ham, Chelsea v Spartak

The entire premise of the eurosport article is to incite and provoke people, playing up to a common idea. The person who compiled it was so pleased with their work they decided not to put their name to it. A sure sign of a decent bit of writing.

Eurosport don't usually author such articles as they are written by teams of journalists - here are two more examples of that style (One, Two) - they will typically only list an explicit author when it is a specific single match report, where only one Eurosport employee was attending and describing the match. Sky Sports operate a similar policy (e.g. 1 or two). Any article published on a major pan-european media company's website will still have had to pass rigourous editorial scrutinisation.

Well I watched the match, from the sounds of it you didn't. The referee did blow the whistle but nobody actually heard it and play continued. Everton broke into our area and Jagielka shot but it was saved by VdS. That's when everyone realised it was over. If he'd have scored there'd be even more commotion but as it was, he didn't.

Actually I saw the whole game, it was on in the pub before the Fulham v Wolves game. He blew the whistle before the Everton shot. Both the Fulham and the Wolves fans were shocked at the decision, saying how it was bad to allow the Man Utd attack to happen but to blow for time as Everton were counter attacking.

I've got the whole match on my laptop, it happened bang on 20mins if that's any help. I've found a small mention of it here at 21mins.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/oct/30/manchester-united-tottenham-hotspur-live

They're no less noteworthy than your ones, the fact they weren't reported kinda proves my point doesn't it?

It's hardly anything like the same level as the Duff handball decision (n.b. described by two different national news papers as extrememly harsh). Both of the incidents I listed (Duff handball and Everton match end, alhtough I could have mentioned the Neville lack of red card too) have been described as contentious decisions in indepenent media reports, you're one is listed virtually as a footnote, stating something along the lines of "it was out but thats not the point".

Ok so it boils down to a hatred of SAF.

Again like your comment on my match attendances, this is wild blind character speculation. You know very little about me but seem happy to speculate that I "hate" Ferguson, simply because I point out his hypocracy about respecting refs. It looks like a cheap attempt to end the argument / debate. Along the lines of "Oh he hates Ferguson, so he's biased against us and his opinion is not valid".

 

[beachryan]

I pretty much stop and give up trying to discuss this here: "Any article published on a major pan-european media company's website will still have had to pass rigourous editorial scrutinisation."

Either you work for a red top, or have no understanding of how media agendas work.

 

[Jumbo_]

I don't really see how the number of matches I've been to is really especially relevant. However since you ask, I've been to over 20 matches in the last 6 months (actually been to as in went to the stadium), which is nearly a match a week, so even if match attendance was relevant it's diffcult to see how I could go to more games.

Sorry where did I say anything about how many matches you've been to? I just said you should watch more (ie full matches on TV/extended highlights) instead of relying on the tabloid match reports, which is the sole basis of your arguments.

Eurosport don't usually author such articles as they are written by teams of journalists - here are two more examples of that style (One, Two) - they will typically only list an explicit author when it is a specific single match report, where only one Eurosport employee was attending and describing the match. Sky Sports operate a similar policy (e.g. 1 or two). Any article published on a major pan-european media company's website will still have had to pass rigourous editorial scrutinisation.

See Ryan's post.

Actually I saw the whole game, it was on in the pub before the Fulham v Wolves game. He blew the whistle before the Everton shot. Both the Fulham and the Wolves fans were shocked at the decision, saying how it was bad to allow the Man Utd attack to happen but to blow for time as Everton were counter attacking.

That's exactly what I said happened. He blew the whistle, nobody heard, play continued, Jagielka shot, VdS saved.

It's hardly anything like the same level as the Duff handball decision (n.b. described by two different national news papers as extrememly harsh). Both of the incidents I listed (Duff handball and Everton match end, alhtough I could have mentioned the Neville lack of red card too) have been described as contentious decisions in indepenent media reports, you're one is listed virtually as a footnote, stating something along the lines of "it was out but thats not the point".

So a ball going off the pitch, then back on, resulting in a goal would not be contentious to you? Or only if it benefitted Manchester United?

Again like your comment on my match attendances, this is wild blind character speculation. You know very little about me but seem happy to speculate that I "hate" Ferguson, simply because I point out his hypocracy about respecting refs. It looks like a cheap attempt to end the argument / debate. Along the lines of "Oh he hates Ferguson, so he's biased against us and his opinion is not valid".

As i said above, I wasn't commenting on your match attendance. If anything watching from home with the benefits of slow-mo replays would be more beneficial in this argument.

Rather than just agree with the point I made that a lot of manager's make hypocritical comments about referees and other teams (which isn't even debatable) you just listed some which hadn't and said that proves what a nasty old man he is. That's how I came to the conclusion you don't like him, and you wouldn't be the first.

Anyway, this is going nowhere. I've tried to give you evidence against what you are said and you've just ignored it all and said that if it's not reported in a newspaper then it didn't happen. Nice chatting.

 

[BobbyBox]

Dissapointing result yesterday, but expected considering everything.

The 15 - 20mins spell they had in the first half they were raping us!

Clichy needs to consentrate better, he has made more mistakes than Fab and Almunia put together in the last couple of seasons. He is getting further away from the player we know he can be. It sounds dramatic, but he really seems like a player that thinks he is alot better than he is and is not trying his hardest in games. If Gibbs was fit, I would definately expect Clichy to be dropped, maybe that is what it will take to give him a kick up the anus?

Anyway, Plus point from the game was Theo I thought. Looked hungry, great finish for the first goal and he wanted more and more and wasn't afraid of shooting which is good imo.

Wilshere was a bit sloppy sometimes, but also showed glimpses of what he is made of.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. Hopefully we can put in a good performance against Newcastle on Sunday.

 

[bebo]

we have 8 games this month 5 league 1 domestic 2 cl ... FOCUS!

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

Sorry where did I say anything about how many matches you've been to? I just said you should watch more (ie full matches on TV/extended highlights) instead of relying on the tabloid match reports, which is the sole basis of your arguments.

Well does going to matches not count as watching them ?

See Ryan's post.

The boy seems to think that Eurosport is a red-top rather than a European media tv channel, he also seems to think that Eurosport have some sort of anti-Man Utd agenda (which would be strange given its a pan-European company with HQ in Paris), so I don't bother commenting on such posts.

That's exactly what I said happened. He blew the whistle, nobody heard, play continued, Jagielka shot, VdS saved.

This is what you said
"Ok fair enough, although most non-hysterical reports have agreed that although it was handled badly by Clattenburg, the goal was legal and Everton still went down the other end and had a shot from 8 yards out (which Van Der Sar saved), so that's not quite as bad as was made out."

The ref blew before Everton's player got his shot off.

So a ball going off the pitch, then back on, resulting in a goal would not be contentious to you? Or only if it benefitted Manchester United?

Hard to judge if it was a major incident, as I say it seems strange other websites (Metro paper, BBC) dont mention it on their reports.

As i said above, I wasn't commenting on your match attendance. If anything watching from home with the benefits of slow-mo replays would be more beneficial in this argument.

You know if you go to a match you can always look at replays of that match on tv - going and watching highlights on TV are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Rather than just agree with the point I made that a lot of manager's make hypocritical comments about referees and other teams (which isn't even debatable) you just listed some which hadn't and said that proves what a nasty old man he is. That's how I came to the conclusion you don't like him, and you wouldn't be the first.

Maybe some Premier League managers are hypocritical, but across the European and Global game there tends to be a more balanced management style. There are some exceptions, but you would be unlikely to get a serie A or a Bundesliga manager saying phrases like "typical Germans". I think you are viewing football through a clouded prism if you think such comments would be the norm.

Anyway, this is going nowhere. I've tried to give you evidence against what you are said and you've just ignored it all and said that if it's not reported in a newspaper then it didn't happen. Nice chatting.

It's usually useful in debates to try and ground / demonstrate your facts in some sort of primary or secondary source, hence my use of newspaper articles.

 

[beachryan]

The boy seems to think that Eurosport is a red-top rather than a European media tv channel, he also seems to think that Eurosport have some sort of anti-Man Utd agenda (which would be strange given its a pan-European company with HQ in Paris), so I don't bother commenting on such posts.

Two things:

1. Not sure if it is a language barrier problem, but please don't call me 'boy' - It's been a couple decades since that was appropriate.

2. Eurosport/ Sky Sports/ Fox News - they all have an agenda. The agenda is to sell advertising, and to maximise that, they need the most viewers. Now, do you honestly believe doing a 'special' on a club like, say, Stoke City will attract as many viewers and hence advertising dollars as doing it about United? It's really not a complicated situation. A show claiming to 'prove' that Manchester United have some illicit advantage will draw more viewers than a show on any other team - whether or not there is a balanced viewpoint.

If you want a great example - see the 'journalism' demonstrated by Sky Sports last season after the Manchester Derby where Owen scored very late. They came out showing that matches at Old Trafford when United were losing had more time added on than we they were winning. In isolation, that sounds quite damning. But when you look at the whole dataset, it turns out this is true of every club at home, and United weren't even in the 5 worst.

Anyway, if you honestly believe that the only reason we've been the most successful club in country over the past 20 years is because of a bizarre FA conspiracy, you'll believe that no matter what proof is shown to you.

At Arsenal fans - again apologies. On a side note, great to see some Walcott form, if only he could rub that off onto Arshavin, your front 3/4 would be terrifying.

 

[BobbyBox]

At Arsenal fans - again apologies. On a side note, great to see some Walcott form, if only he could rub that off onto Arshavin, your front 3/4 would be terrifying.

Arshavin could be so much more. I think him starting off so well when he came to Arsenal has created a monster in a way. Like a number of our players, it is like he believes he is unbelievably good and shouldn't try as hard. When in fact he has had a few great games, but he hasn't achieved anything.

He is the one player on the pitch that you can usually gaurantee, that he won't track back. He hasn't the will to get the ball back, if he has to run backwards (it seems). I think he is getting better at this, but it has been along time coming and Arsene has obviously been talking to him about it.

Most games he just doesn't look bothered, which I cannot comprehend. He needs to sort it out, because at the moment I would much rather have Rosicky, Nasri, Walcott etc all playing ahead of him, because they add more to the team in general.

Rumours are he is after a new deal and to get paid more money? if true, he is not going the right way to get one.

The shame is he has the potential to be an Arsenal great. He can turn a game in a second he is exaclty what we need. Imagine Arshavin on one side and Walcott on the other bang on form and playing for the team, they could be devestating together.

It's such a shame, but I really hope he sorts his head out and starts realising he isn't as great as he thinks he is yet. He needs to show us what he is made of and stop coasting through games.

 

[tc811]

He has that same swagger about him as do Ibra, Crynaldo, and all the usual divas on the pitch these days. One thing you can always count on is these kinds of players will disappear when you need them the most. Where is the 4 goal Arshavin who terrorised the Liverpool team that finished second that season?

 

[BobbyBox]

He has that same swagger about him as do Ibra, Crynaldo, and all the usual divas on the pitch these days. One thing you can always count on is these kinds of players will disappear when you need them the most. Where is the 4 goal Arshavin who terrorised the Liverpool team that finished second that season?

That's the thing, at least Ibra and Ronaldo have won things and have done their jobs consistanly well for long periods of time. They have more of a right to act that way.

But playing well for a few games a season and then thinking you're the dogs danglies, even when you haven't won anything etc. It is just ridiculous.

I have a fear with Arshavin that because of his lack of commitment to the team on the pitch he will start being picked less (and rightly so) then he will get the hump and want to leave.

I wouldn't usually care, but Arshavin can be devestating on his day and a real asset to Arsenal. I just want him to buck up his ideas and be consistant with his performances.

 

[BobbyBox]

Why does it take our team to go down 1-0 before they show any passion or want to win the game?! It's becoming a joke now.

There is a mentality in the team to think they will win games no matter how they play. This mentality needs to be smacked out of them. They are not learning game after game! they are complacent and just look like they are coasting through the game.

Now emirates is a place where any team can come and win. That is not the sign of title challengers, it's fucking ridiculous.

I don't know what needs to be done to stop them playing this way? because whenever we lose they don't seem to learn anything from the defeat?! like they are the most fucking stupid people on the planet.

Anyway if we have anychance of winning anything, somebody needs to tell the team some home truths. Basically they are all shit until they win something...even win a few games in a row would be nice. It won't be until some players realise that they are not great players, that we will win something.

We haven't won anything in 5years, you would think that would be enough motivation? it doesn't seem to be. The players need to take a long hard look at themselves. If we don't do anything this season, then I think a clearout of players needs to be sought and get in players that actually want to be at a top club challenging for silverware.

 

[bebo]

bumper at least chels lost ! nothing gain nothing lost we must win midweek

 

[matt1288]

It's a shame really, Arsenal never win when they NEED to. I remember the last time Chelsea lost against Man City Arsenal drew?

On a side note, I've been really impressed by Walcott recently, definitely a more composed player now.

 

[BobbyBox]

Exaclty, a game we should of won at home to move within 2 points of Chelsea. Yet we put in a half arsed performance to fuck that all up! its so frustrating it's off the scale!

Imo we have the squad now to win things. We have a great mix of players and good back up. But there is something mentally wrong at Arsenal, I don't know why or how it has come about, but it is a big problem.

 

[jonneymendoza]

fucking stupid arsenal. maybe the problem is wenger

bobby, you must admit we could have easily won 2:1 had those shots diddnt hit the bar twice. lady luck was up manchester united rear end this week and not at arsenals

 

[Jumbo_]

How were we lucky?

 

[gerd]

You were not lucky jumbo.
If a club time and time again wins matches in injury time without having played good football, let alone a good match...that is not luck. I really don't like Man Utd's football, but it isn't coïncidence or luck that they always come back and clinch it in injury time. Hats off to them...give Arsenal that mentality and they will win silverware.
It has to be in the recruiting of players. It's a mentality thing...Arsenal are playing with 11 Ferrari's and Man Utd have a couple of Ferrari's, but the rest of the team are rather boring but very liable ordinary cars...

 

[BobbyBox]

fucking stupid arsenal. maybe the problem is wenger

bobby, you must admit we could have easily won 2:1 had those shots diddnt hit the bar twice. lady luck was up manchester united rear end this week and not at arsenals

Wenger could be the problem, only in the way that he makes them think they are better than they are. So they feel like they have nowhere to progress and should just continue playing the way they are?

We were the better team against Newcastle of course. No matter how much the comentators say how well Newcastle were playing, they had one shot and scored and then most of the game had all their men in the box for the rest of the game. They played well defending and keeping their lead.

The stream I saw the commentators were licking Newcastle's arses. Whenever they could put the boot into Arsenal they did. I lost count at how many times the commentator commented on Fabregas not playing well. Every 5mins or so! they also complained about Wenger complaining about the time wasting, which he has every right to complain about. It's so shit when you don't get objective commentating.

But the fact is if you let a team go 1-0 up against you at home so early, they will always do what newcastle did. So we shouldn't be lazy in games and give them the opportunity to score that goal. It happens time and time again, they say they mustn't let it happen again. Then a few games/months later they do exactly the same thing.

It's the lazyness and the superiority complex our team has against teams we should be better than, that is killing us. On so many occasions we have not shown these teams respect and we get punished for it.

 

[jonneymendoza]

You were not lucky jumbo.
If a club time and time again wins matches in injury time without having played good football, let alone a good match...that is not luck. I really don't like Man Utd's football, but it isn't coïncidence or luck that they always come back and clinch it in injury time. Hats off to them...give Arsenal that mentality and they will win silverware.
It has to be in the recruiting of players. It's a mentality thing...Arsenal are playing with 11 Ferrari's and Man Utd have a couple of Ferrari's, but the rest of the team are rather boring but very liable ordinary cars...

you do know that arsenal have scored past the 80th min mark at the emirates for like 7-8 games in a row.

arsenal can do what united can. we was unlucky yesterday. two shots hit the bar.

 

[Nick Cave]

Seems no one is going to run away this season but that is a poor result by any standard...

 

[bebo]

+ agreed season seem to dip imo

 

[BobbyBox]

Nice result

Chamakh having a decent start to his Arsenal career

Why couldn't we just beat Newcastle!

 

[bebo]

Arshavin couldn`t find the back of the net, poor bloke. Fabanski was great tonight!