Are the diehard Pro Evo fans blocking the progression?

[Daytripper]

Hear me out, I am not one to belittle anyones personal tastes or their point of views on purpose.

I've just been reading the wenb blog, with a statement saying Konami will be reading the blog on the view of the demo and there seems to be a hell of a lot of people thrilled with the demo, phrases such as "amazing" "PES IS BACK" etc. I personally think the PES series is dying on its arse but thats just me.

Are these type of people sending out the wrong message to Konami? Are they reading these type of comments and saying to themselves, well we will produce another couple of tweaks next year and thats it because they all seem, in majority to be made up with it. Are there people who love the PES series letting their heart rule their head?

I have loved the pro evo series for a long time, since the 360 and PS3 have come along its been turned from love to angry frustation at the developers for what seems to be either being lazy or getting blind faith feedback.

Been playing FIFA 09 and although its a superb football game (cant get to grips with shooting though) I really do wish with this years version of pro evo doesnt do aswell and gets a lot of average reviews (who knows the final build might be excellent)this maybe the real kick up the arse Konami needs to finally open up and maybe send development to Europe.

 

[chrismodd]

I don't think this is true, it's the same comments and wish list every year and fans has been left dissapointed. Complaints and yet that doesn't make a difference. I sincerely believe they are trying to achieve their goals.

Firstly I believe Konami team is small (don't know if this is financial problem or otherwise). Secondly, having less money coming in wouldn't help resources in making the game the best way it could be.

Third, making these simulations good are not as easy as gamers might think. There's a lot that needs to put into it. How do you know they become lazy? I'm not sure, it is too easy to point the finger. Either way, you know in all facets of life, it is almost impossible to make everybody happy. There's always somebody who is not happy with a situation.

Lastly, the bits about sending development to Europe. why? Because europeans will definitely make a better football game?

 

[oFifa09o]

I don't think this is true, it's the same comments and wish list every year and fans has been left dissapointed. Complaints and yet that doesn't make a difference. I sincerely believe they are trying to achieve their goals.

Firstly I believe Konami team is small (don't know if this is financial problem or otherwise). Secondly, having less money coming in wouldn't help resources in making the game the best way it could be.

Third, making these simulations good are not as easy as gamers might think. There's a lot that needs to put into it. How do you know they become lazy? I'm not sure, it is too easy to point the finger. Either way, you know in all facets of life, it is almost impossible to make everybody happy. There's always somebody who is not happy with a situation.

Lastly, the bits about sending development to Europe. why? Because europeans will definitely make a better football game?

I just wonder if KONAMI can finanse MGS4 level of animators and mocap...why not on pes?

 

[Daytripper]

I don't think this is true, it's the same comments and wish list every year and fans has been left dissapointed. Complaints and yet that doesn't make a difference. I sincerely believe they are trying to achieve their goals.

Firstly I believe Konami team is small (don't know if this is financial problem or otherwise). Secondly, having less money coming in wouldn't help resources in making the game the best way it could be.

Third, making these simulations good are not as easy as gamers might think. There's a lot that needs to put into it. How do you know they become lazy? I'm not sure, it is too easy to point the finger. Either way, you know in all facets of life, it is almost impossible to make everybody happy. There's always somebody who is not happy with a situation.

Lastly, the bits about sending development to Europe. why? Because europeans will definitely make a better football game?

pro evolution soccer has made a lot of money, how many years has it sold well? sold very well infact. so where has that money gone? on MGS4?

how do you know they are not lazy? i'm going on the evidence of the time frame they have had development kits for next gen consoles. PES6 on 360 was average at best with plenty of features missing, the features have returned but the gameplay, animations, sound have stood still somewhat.

why not europe? you give me one good reason why not.

 

[Jamezinho]

If Konami use the WENB forums as a yardstick of public reaction to PES then the series will go nowhere fast. That is if they even read the forums. I'm sure their European staff do, but does the opinion of the fans get to the people that matter in Japan?

 

[joeryan]

If Konami use the WENB forums as a yardstick of public reaction to PES then the series will go nowhere fast. That is if they even read the forums. I'm sure their European staff do, but does the opinion of the fans get to the people that matter in Japan?

Adam's only comment on the demo (posted on WENB, Oct 2):

"Thank you for all your comments so far guys! The guys at Konami have been reading them, they mentioned it when I spoke to them today!

Overall positive, I’m glad to see.

And cheers for that info Riot, WENB get their copies on Saturday"

I understand his position, as he does run a Pro Evo site, but it appears that he's willing to pull the wool over his own eyes. Maybe he feels he has too much to lose by being critical, maybe he genuinely sees the good in the game, but I've found nothing but negativity from WENB's more senior posters, and Adam has kept a very low profile since the playtest (he did get married, so that accounts for some of it). I still get the feeling that he wants to save face.

If Konami want to take their cues from the pre-teens posting on the WENB blog comments section, then that's up to them. Maybe that's the market they're going for now.

 

[H4RDY]

My first point is, to think Konami only ever listens to one site when looking for criticisms of their game is absolutely ludicrous. WENB is just one of many sites. Speaking of which if the general concensus over on WENB is that the demo is excellent I should be posting on that board, because they seem to be playing the same demo as me, unlike some of the folk on this forum.

My second point is, if europeans were any good at making football games where are they already? Konami are doing a fantastic job, but as usual people want everything right away. Patience people patience, they have improved the game leaps and bounds compared to 2008 and they will continue to do so every year.

 

[gurjisfit]

Re mgs 4 - has everyone played it? was enjoyable but aside from the graphics, the animation, level size and AI was no better than in its ps2 days - it was not next gen at all quite frankly - there are no obvious improvements in any of those areas mentioned between mgs3 and mgs4.

to me mgs 4 was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors and nothing more.

perhaps konami are genuinely just lacking programmers who understand next gen hardware.

i must admit, i find those who are enjoying pes 2009 demo to be as mystifying as those who used to prefer FIFA in ps2 days - the demo is a joke and i believe it makes a mockery of those who actually go out and pay £40 for it.

I think some people need to go back and play we7, we9ac or pes5 and remind themselves of how high they used to expect the bar to rest.

 

[oFifa09o]

Re mgs 4 - has everyone played it? was enjoyable but aside from the graphics, the animation, level size and AI was no better than in its ps2 days - it was not next gen at all quite frankly - there are no obvious improvements in any of those areas mentioned between mgs3 and mgs4.

to me mgs 4 was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors and nothing more.

perhaps konami are genuinely just lacking programmers who understand next gen hardware.

i must admit, i find those who are enjoying pes 2009 demo to be as mystifying as those who used to prefer FIFA in ps2 days - the demo is a joke and i believe it makes a mockery of those who actually go out and pay £40 for it.

I think some people need to go back and play we7, we9ac or pes5 and remind themselves of how high they used to expect the bar to rest.

why pes doesnt have that level of graphics and animation?

 

[Lami]

My 2 cents?

Football fans seriously need a 3rd company like 2K or UBISOFT to give it a try and also up the competition. Back in the day we had so many options to choose from. Now its either EA or Konami. Ffs.

 

[gurjisfit]

My 2 cents?

Football fans seriously need a 3rd company like 2K or UBISOFT to give it a try and also up the competition. Back in the day we had so many options to choose from. Now its either EA or Konami. Ffs.

Agree, but how about SI games using the most realistic match engine out there to build a football game - imagine the commitment to detail!!!

 

[Retri]

I just wonder if KONAMI can finanse MGS4 level of animators and mocap...why not on pes?

Because they've blown a big chunk of the money they made off of the series on pointless licenses such as the CL one, which, sadly, is what has driven the purchases of most of the aforementioned "die-hard" brainless PES core-fans as of late (who, by the way, couldn't dishern a shitty game from a decent simulation as long as the PES logo was printed on the case and a famous testimonial/blingee license was advertised along with the game), actively taking off resources from the development department.

Pro-tip: the Metal Gear series as a whole has sold way less than the WE/PES one, yet KCEJ/Kojima Pro has been able to invest probably 10 times as much in the R&D department and development compared to KCET, which makes you wonder, probably Seabass is well aware of the fact that anything he releases is going to sell a truckload of copies, despite the general quality of the title itself.

I don't even feel like blaming the producer and the company management for their greed, they're running a business after all, they're just being smart and living off of the retardness and lack of critical spirit of the numb-minded, fanbase.

 

[TheWolf]

I agree to an extent with the thread starter. The fanboys always shout everybody down and allow no criticism whatsoever, even constructive criticism. Even the slightest "I think this could be better..." comment results in "f... off and play FIFA then". I think most of us would be happy if they just took the PES6 engine, updated the rosters, gave us some slots to add teams and leagues and gave us a good in-game editor. The graphics wouldn't have to be enhanced too much as I think most of us care about gameplay above everything else. The PS2 versions are still superior in terms of gameplay so that's what people mean when they say the series has gone backwards. Perhaps they just need to make a port of the PS2 version each year because the "next gen" football experiment for Konami is taking too long to even catch up with what they had successfully achieved on the previous gen. 4 years ago!

 

[joeryan]

The people the thread is referring to, I wouldn't call them diehard PES fans. I think a real PES fan would realise what the game used to be, and what it is now, and they are far from being the same thing.

Obviously, Konami care about the sales figures, but the opinions of these people, I doubt they give a monkey's.

 

[oFifa09o]

Because they've blown a big chunk of the money they made off of the series on pointless licenses such as the CL one, which, sadly, is what has driven the purchases of most of the aforementioned "die-hard" brainless PES core-fans as of late (who, by the way, couldn't dishern a shitty game from a decent simulation as long as the PES logo was printed on the case and a famous testimonial/blingee license was advertised along with the game), actively taking off resources from the development department.

Pro-tip: the Metal Gear series as a whole has sold way less than the WE/PES one, yet KCEJ/Kojima Pro has been able to invest probably 10 times as much in the R&D department and development compared to KCET, which makes you wonder, probably Seabass is well aware of the fact that anything he releases is going to sell a truckload of copies, despite the general quality of the title itself.

I don't even feel like blaming the producer and the company management for their greed, they're running a business after all, they're just being smart and living off of the retardness and lack of critical spirit of the numb-minded, fanbase.

However KONAMI cannot even hold a candle to EA's marketing machine...and without gameplay edge EA soon will eat up all their marketshare and they will be back to 96' point...

 

[greenmachine]

perhaps konami are genuinely just lacking programmers who understand next gen hardware.

If you listen to the Podcast on WENB with Adam and Suff , they had a guy on username Riot, and that was his point. That Japanese companies are struggling to understand next gen hardware and programming. On one PC he said that they were at least 2 years behind western companies on this, and didn't think they had enough if any programmers with experience of next gen hardware and programming to make the sort of games coming out of western game companies.

You meantion SGM4 , I am sure he said that Konami had "Outside" help with this game.

I will be more than happy if Seabass and this team can pull off a true next gen PES game with an all new engine and all the animation (2kSports) and gameplay for PES2010. But with what I have heard and seen on other sites, not only PES sites, there was the same line of thinking on the state of Japanese games companies as far as making next gen PS3 360 and PC games.

I hope they can , but I will say it now, I will be shocked if they did it for PES2010.

 

[Jamezinho]

Konami need a European team to work on PES. Get some people in that know how to work with next-gen technology - look outside of Japan for once. EA have people from all over the world working on Fifa. If they fail to do this Japan could end up being their only market for PES.

 

[oFifa09o]

Konami need a European team to work on PES. Get some people in that know how to work with next-gen technology - look outside of Japan for once. EA have people from all over the world working on Fifa. If they fail to do this Japan could end up being their only market for PES.

Youve just described Sony and PS3...

 

[bertkamp16]

They are blocking PES's progress. Its really that simple. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if people keeps buying up a stagnant footy francise like PES by the millions, the developers have not incentice whatsoever to improve the game.

 

[oFifa09o]

They are blocking PES's progress. Its really that simple. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if people keeps buying up a stagnant footy francise like PES by the millions, the developers have not incentice whatsoever to improve the game.

If they dont KONAMI will simply close the Footy dev team and no more pes whatsoever....so its lose/lose situation...

 

[lanrie19]

Sorry to say guys but this year I a somewhat disappointed with PES09. It is much better than 2008 and the gameplay has improved but it just doesn't feel like it has made enough progression over the years. My feelings are based on the demo so I hope (seriously doubt it) that the proper version is better.

My mate got Fifa the other day and asked me to go and rent it from blockbuster (bear in mind I have refused to play fifa since 99 and am/was a DIEHARD pro evo fan since ISS98!!!!!) I got the game purely so I could take the piss out of him for making me pay £6 pound for 'this crap'!

Put the game in and had about 3 games online... wow!

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the game play is better than pes09 but I am not saying it isn't either. It is different to pro but it isn't the same as the old fifas. It has borrowed from pro massively and worked on it! So it offers a different style of play it isn't perfect but it is just as enjoyable as 'the way pro was'.

Just to distinguish myself from all the other 'Fifa converts', I will summarise my reasons below and whoever wants to, can criticise appropriately:

Fifa09 v PES09

Gameplay

Massive improvement! Fifa has massively ripped off pro's gameplay mechanics and further developed it. The passing is good, through balls are fantastic! The ball physics have improved and the shooting is thoroughly enjoyable. I would have to say that it still has the slight element of delay between you telling it what to do and it actually doing it but this is minimal and the important thing is you feel in control!

Presentation

What can I say... EA have always gone all out when it comes to presentation. The intro, the soundtracks, replays, crowds, commentary... the list goes on and I don't think that it needs any clarification.

Pro has crappy music, piss poor intro, graphics are an improvement but still unconvincing. And how is it possible to make the champions league look crap!

Licences

Lets just say, Fifas got a LOT of kits. Pro has a few, oh, and it's got Man U and Liverpool licences aswell!

WENB (Adam) - "Oh, great, does that mean we have the rest of the Premier League?

Seabass - "No, we have replaced the Premier League with this years new feature, we call it the Master League! And instead of using the leagues local currency we have decided that it is more rational to use our new currency of WE points! Isn't that great!"

WENB (Adam) - "...Yeah...? Good job Seabass..."

Online

My, my, my... online is flawless! No lag, whatsoever! 10 v 10, I was never convinced of its practicality, but it works online and if it is your thing you can do it. Pro is still struggling to do 2 v 2!

Online leagues and competitions - thats is all I wanted from pro evo. Decent gameplay and online tournaments but Seabass is struggling to keep the gameplay at a good standard!

The thing missing from Fifa is online cups and being able to watch other peoples games, now that would be fantastic!

Conclusion

Fact of the matter is I think Fifa's gameplay this year is just as good as pro evos. I always said 'if fifa's gameplay was just as good, then I would get fifa'. Why? Because PES/Konami/Seabass have been taking the piss for the past 5 years! 'Tweaking' the gameplay back and fourth like we don't see that they have ran out of ideas! They haven't added anything new (or at least of significance) for a long time!

On top of that, I think PES has lost its direction and as a result of not focusing on the real issues, it is starting to go back backwards.

PES09's gameplay (Based on demo) is better than last years, but that is easy. This years version leaves a lot to be desired, the gameplay feels very clunky but I am sure that I would get used to it - and this is the thing! Seabass produces all this crap and we say oh well its pro evo, its better than all the rest and we will 'get used to it'.

I am no longer blindly following PES09. I am now a fan of football. I say whoever can combine good gameplay with good graphics; online functions and good presentation, gets my money. Failing that I will settle for gameplay and online functionality.

Who knows, Fifa may have gotten lucky with its gameplay this year and may mess it up next year. If that is the case, and PES is better next year, then I will get PES.

 

[Nick Cave]

Yes, kill them all...

 

[who me]

silent fifa fanboys here. sneaksssss!!!!

 

[dotkira]

I think it's mainly just the terribly arrogant and stubborn attitude of Konami in general, as they said on a WENB podcast once "Konami wouldn't even admit that there were problems with PES2008". In their eyes the game is flawless.

It's too dramatic to say "PES is dead", of course it isn't. It will go on selling millions of copies and being a very succesful game. However, to any discerning football gaming fan, the series is as good as dead due to the road they have chosen for the game, which is the arcade road.