A case for full manual

[Radiation]

Nice goal. But in saying that the goal is better on manual than on assisted because "I had to control...etc" is basically the definition of ego. There's nothing wrong with that...we all have ego and we all would get more satisfaction of doing something that required more skill, but it's still, almost by definition, an ego thing.

Fair enough I can see your point in that respect. You can look at it the same way as if you decorated your own home. You can spend hours doing it yourself or pay someone else to do it for you. And I guess at the end of the day in a perfect world both choices would turn out identical and no one would be able to tell the difference and no one would even care.

Now if the guy who did it himself then went around telling the other guy that 'what he did was better because he did it himself'. I'd class that as an ego.

But if you have the 'pay someone else guy' being the first to comment chipping in with 'don't think you're better than me because you did it yourself!' comments you're obviously going to have to state that you didn't think or say that and go down the whole route of defending yourself or if you say nothing you look like you were thinking that and they caught you out. Then they say; 'Well just so you know, it ISN'T better to have done it yourself!' - Yet clearly, like with almost everything else in life, the opposite is true. I don't think pointing out that fact in a response to the contrary makes me have an ego.

Having pride in something you have done yourself seems to be getting confused with having an ego and looking down on others.


I'm not playing manual to go around rubbing it peoples faces and talking down to them. I just wanted to see how different the game could feel after reading peoples thoughts on 09 on manual. Yet somehow because I wanted to try that I'm only doing it so I can look down on other people with my 'Manual snobbery'.

Personally when I play on world class I get beat, badly, I'm shit. When I play on professional with semi/assisted controls I thrash everyone. So my perfect balance (which I stumbled across when trying manual controls) is Pro difficulty with manual controls. The misplaced passes, shots and pressure knowing that goals won't come easy just makes it difficult enough for to me have fun, not thrash my opponents unless I get lucky and when I lose the game is usually a close encounter or I'm playing a top class team and had no chance anyway.

But again, why does it make a difference to you what your opponent uses?
If you want to use manual then fine. If you want to add an extra element of difficulty to produce the same results as a assisted player then go ahead. But to judge someone else because they dont want to use the same manual controls is totally wrong. Just use whatever works for you and leave it at that, not moan because people with assisted are able to ping pong the ball around better than you. You also have the option of doing the same so its only an advantage for the opponent because you handicapped yourself.


EDIT
That was aimed at Radiation btw.

But again, why does it make a difference to you what your opponent uses?

Well I don't recall saying it did make a difference to me what they use. My girlfriend uses assisted controls against me and wins and I never tell her 'yeah you only won because you were using assisted' or anything like that. It's my choice to play with her knowing full well that she is using assisted so it's just tough tits if I get beat badly.
If she scores a good goal, I never talk it down and state that my tap in was far superior because it was on manual.

But if she then scored a volley similar to mine and started to compare the two saying that hers was better and was rubbing the goal in my face and using the line' Don't think your goal was better than mine just because you had full control over it' then my choices are stay quiet and say nothing or point out the facts that 'well if you're going to be an arse about it, you're on assisted so it wasn't that great if you're comparing the two'

"If you ask me, its this very assumption that has people thinking FIFA is miles ahead of PES. "

I'd actually think the opposite of that. Fifa by default controls seems to aid you with goals a hell of a lot. Whereas with PES I've always felt like you had to work at the goal and just get everything right. Playing Fifa on manual gives me the same kind of feeling I used to get with PES. If I scored a great goal or have a great pass and run movement and come close to scoring I feel like I actually did it rather than the game aimed it all for me and I just had to tap pass now and again in a passive experience.

But to judge someone else because they dont want to use the same manual controls is totally wrong. Just use whatever works for you and leave it at that, not moan because people with assisted are able to ping pong the ball around better than you.

Funny you should say that after saying "manual users have developed an ego here, thinking they play "real football". Sorry to burst your bubble but real football is when you put on a pair of shorts and boots and outside to play with a real ball. Just cuz you have full or more control over your virtual footballer than I do, it doesnt make it any more better or real.".


So it's okay to judge manual players, just not assisted players?

 

[ant0n]

Assisted is for the arcade COD players.
Semi/Manual is for the sim players.

In 09 I loved calling people out in Clubs and BAP because of their bragging for their ping pong goals.

 

[kamy100]

At the moment playing on all semi-assisted controls, keep losing games online but getting better, I may graduate upto fully manual once I have mastered semi-assisted. The good thing is that the online search filter works very well, I play semi assisted players and usually find a game pretty much straight away.

 

[AlaaEG]

At the moment playing on all semi-assisted controls, keep losing games online but getting better, I may graduate upto fully manual once I have mastered semi-assisted. The good thing is that the online search filter works very well, I play semi assisted players and usually find a game pretty much straight away.

Can you post your settings for the search?

 

[kamy100]

I am playing on the 360:
Ranked or Unranked.
6 Mins
Controls: Semi
Everything else to all.

It will search for a match, after 30 seconds if the system can't find a match it will ask if you would like to create a custom match, I click yes, create the match and normally straight away an opponent is found.

 

[RuneEdge]

But again, why does it make a difference to you what your opponent uses?

Well I don't recall saying it did make a difference to me what they use. My girlfriend uses assisted controls against me and wins and I never tell her 'yeah you only won because you were using assisted' or anything like that. It's my choice to play with her knowing full well that she is using assisted so it's just tough tits if I get beat badly.
If she scores a good goal, I never talk it down and state that my tap in was far superior because it was on manual.

But if she then scored a volley similar to mine and started to compare the two saying that hers was better and was rubbing the goal in my face and using the line' Don't think your goal was better than mine just because you had full control over it' then my choices are stay quiet and say nothing or point out the facts that 'well if you're going to be an arse about it, you're on assisted so it wasn't that great if you're comparing the two'

"If you ask me, its this very assumption that has people thinking FIFA is miles ahead of PES. "

I'd actually think the opposite of that. Fifa by default controls seems to aid you with goals a hell of a lot. Whereas with PES I've always felt like you had to work at the goal and just get everything right. Playing Fifa on manual gives me the same kind of feeling I used to get with PES. If I scored a great goal or have a great pass and run movement and come close to scoring I feel like I actually did it rather than the game aimed it all for me and I just had to tap pass now and again in a passive experience.



Funny you should say that after saying "manual users have developed an ego here, thinking they play "real football". Sorry to burst your bubble but real football is when you put on a pair of shorts and boots and outside to play with a real ball. Just cuz you have full or more control over your virtual footballer than I do, it doesnt make it any more better or real.".


So it's okay to judge manual players, just not assisted players?

The point I was making was that I prefer to use whatever I want and wouldnt care what the opponent uses. And now you're saying I'm the one thats judging?

 

[Radiation]

The point I was making was that I prefer to use whatever I want and wouldnt care what the opponent uses. And now you're saying I'm the one thats judging?

Yes. You're saying 'don't judge someone just because they're not using manual' and yet you're judging them for using manual claiming they have egos and saying 'don't think your goals or game is better or more real than mine, because it isn't'.

 

[vondave]

Its far more satisfying scoring a good goal on full manual, than it is on any other controller setting. End Of

 

[Chonk]

Ah maybe this is where i am going wrong.. I have read many posts on this forum about how manual is the only way to play fifa etc etc and agree it gets boring playing opponents when they are cutting through your team with one touch passing ZZZZzzzzz. So i gave manual a go yesterday and the first 3 games i loved because i was playing a guy at my level(both crap). We played 3 games he won the first 1-0 i won the second 2-1 and then the last 2-1 as well but the thing i loved the most was that every goal was different and my winner in the last game was a brilliant scuffed Defoe shot which totally caught the keeper wrong footed and rolled into the corner
But i have played 5 or 6 games since on full manual and have been totally owned and at times have not even got out of my own half. I think from now on i will try semi assisted passing and manual everything else

 

[PU6HY]

I don't get aim assist on COD, for example so I don't expect it in a footy game. If I did get an aim assist in COD I would be classed as a cheat. I'm not syaing the same applies in FIFA as it clearly doesn't.

And of course Rads goal was better cos it was on all manual! It obviously looks the same but the mechanics behind it make it a better goal due to the obvious reasons. How can anybody argue it's the same???

Stop talking cack about egos aswell. I play manual to feel more involved. I don't like playing against the ping pong perfect passing so do my best to avoid it. The only "egos" I've ever come across are against people who use full assisted. They believe they are class at the game. I'm sure they would be good on other settings but some of the messages you get and the verbal is laughable. I replayed 1 guy (after going back to fully assisted) and stuck 7 on him but did I enjoy the game? No. To me it was boring. All my opinion of course.

Play how you want. I honestly believe you will get more enjoyment playing it a different way to assisted but freedom of choice and all that.

Rad, we are trying to setup a manual tourny over in the club on other forum. Feel free to join in (Club members only due to some idiots over there in other threads).

My 7 year old son passes the ball around for fun on fully assisted btw ... and he doesn't even like football.

 

[johnny_on]

I'm not sure what this thread is trying to say...

Manual will never beat assisted if you have the same player play 20 games manual and 20 games assisted he'll win more on assisted. This will always be the case.

People who play manual generally are the ones who aren't bothered about winning at all costs. I play on it currently because when i play all manual games in Fifa 10 it becomes the best football game i have ever played. I have never had online matches be sooooo good. Tense,last minute tackles deflected shots, missed one on ones.... Its amazing..

I would never choose it based on whether my win ratio went up. I choose on how much i enjoy the game. I'd rather be beat 1-2 in a close fought all manual game than win 4-0 in an assisted pressure fest.

 

[PU6HY]

I'm not sure what this thread is trying to say...

Manual will never be beat assisted if you have the same player play 20 games manual and 20 games assisted he'll win more on assisted. This will always be the case.

People who play manual generally are the ones who aren't bothered about winning at all costs. I play on it currently because when i play all manual games in Fifa 10 it becomes the best football game i have ever played. I have never had online matches be sooooo good. Tense,last minute tackles deflected shots, missed one on ones.... Its amazing..

I would never choose it based on whether my win ratio went up. I choose on how much i enjoy the game. I'd rather be beat 1-2 in a close fought all manual game than win 4-0 in an assisted pressure fest.

I agree with that. Well said old chap.

 

[AlaaEG]

I agree with that. Well said old chap.

Yea I agree with too! Games on assisted mostly have no less than 6 goals per game!

 

[Rodelero]

On this issue, I recently created a thread on the EAUK forums venting all my anger + a little bit more into a thread accusing the assist system of ruining the game.

The replies were unbelievably hilarious. I realised about 10 things:

1. The ability to read is positively correlated to the difficulty of control setting you used
2. Assist users are entirely delusional about what real football is
3. Assist users seem to believe that people using assists are on average as skilled, and using as much skill
4. Assist users have a lack of understanding of sarcasm
5. A 'good' player on manual will beat a 'good' player on assisted
6. Most assist users use the 'not enough time' to excuse their choice, even though they have time to post on forums
7. Assist users don't seem to realise that manual users are STILL treated as a lower-class citizen
8. Assist users don't believe that, like in any game with variable assists/difficulty settings, the harder your settings the higher the potential ought to be, and a player who has learnt to use the harder settings should be able to beat himself using the lower settings
9. Assist users don't see the problem with a statement like this:
"I have won 10 out of 10 ranked now, why should I change to manual just to lose all the time? "
10. Assist users can't read

Now, that's over-generalising.. but actually it's not that far off a total-truthe. I cannot believe how fucking stupid most people on that forum are.

11. Assist users use assisted because it wins - and some will delude themselves into thinking this isn't the case - but it is
12. Assist users don't care about realistic football
13. Assist users care primarily about winning, and even admit this explicitly or implicitly

Some crackers:
In reply to someone suggesting some control settings which are a lot better (basically semi with manual throughs and lobs):

why though?

the assisted system works perfectly and everyone can use it. perfect set up is

assisted
assisted
assisted
assisted
semi
assisted

What a load of crap, the reason why you play with manual is not because of the realism but you will always find an excuse when you lose. Awwww, he used assisted while i was on manual, how unfair! You are just simply not good enough son

no you play boring football.

top flight clubs can play football like you can with assissted controls.

HENCE WHY THEY ARE IN THE GAME TO LET YOU PLAY LIKE THE BEST TEAMS DO.

There are a thousand more gems in that thread, but, there is just no point. I find this problem so frustrating that I could literally break their noses. They are so unbelievably ignorant. A lot of people from the manual community have been very polite, and calm, asking for a little, and we've got fuck all. How I actually feel is furious. I want the full assists gone, or segregated in the online community as some kind of amateur setting. I want the default settings for an 'experienced' player to be AT LEAST semi.

I cannot believe that EA ruin their game so much through this. This game is INCREDIBLE on manual - and I fundamentally believe that anyone who doesn't think that is missing out biiig time.

Also, yeah, if I played better football with the others more easily, then yeah I'd probably prefer them. Again, what's your point?

and that's what sums it all up.

 

[johnny_on]

Remember over there (EA forums) you are generally dealing with kids... i don't mean college but kids.. under 14...

Now without being offensive to under 14's i know there are intelligent ones but that accounts for alot of the idiots online and in those forums. They are bothered about winning and winning only, thats why they used to play as Man Utd and now play as Real Madrid.

i wouldn't get down about it, but EA should consider having a manual online section. 1v1 online, 5v5 online BAPS and clubs all manual.

This year they got half way there with being able to search for manual games and its great.

 

[AlaaEG]

LoL, Rodelero! Hilarious stuff! What's your gamertag? Add me to your friends.

 

[Rodelero]

Remember over there (EA forums) you are generally dealing with kids... i don't mean college but kids.. under 14...

Absolutely... but there are a lot of the dissenters who aren't 14 too.. some who are respected members of the community... and they still don't get it.

Now without being offensive to under 14's i know there are intelligent ones but that accounts for alot of the idiots online and in those forums. They are bothered about winning and winning only, thats why they used to play as Man Utd and now play as Real Madrid.

Exactly. One of the things I've brought up a few times, and in that thread, was Forza 3...

Forza 3 on hardest settings gives you:

No automated clutch
No automated gears
No ABS
No STM
No TCS
No racing line
You have to brake for yourself

on the easiest settings, it's exactly the opposite:

Clutch is automated
Gears are automated
ABS means you don't have to worry about your brakes locking
STM means that your chance of spinning the car is dramatically reduced
TCS means that your chance of spinning under acceleration is dramatically reduced
A racing line shows you the ideal place to drive, brake, accelerate, and lift off
The game brakes for you - you only have to hold accelerate and steer

So, the crucial quesiton is, the crucial difference is - why on Forza are the top drivers using the hardest settings? Because in each case, using the harder setting gives you a slight advantage. Using the manual clutch allows faster shifting. Using manual gears allows you more control. Not using ABS means you can push the car further, same with STM and TCS. The racing line isn't perfect, and puts you off. The autobraking slows you down but doesn't do it efficiently.

So when you look at the leaderboards, the only assist in any of the top 10's on the demo is the auto-clutch, and even that was slowly dying out. I don't use the manual-clutch because it's a bit awkward, and I find it too much.. and I absolutely accept that therefore my potential is slightly lower than it is for the top drivers.. but that's right.

The assist users mentality on the EAUK forum (and generally) is equivalent to it being best to use all of the assists... and to still win.. and when they imply this... I really feel quite violent towards my cushion.

That is what FIFA is missing. FIFA has it the wrong way round - and that is where ALL the problems come from. Because Forza 3 has it this way round, there are NO problems with assists. It's absolutely reasonable and it's absolutely the right way round. If you are good enough to take one more assist off, then you get the advantage.. THAT is how it MUST be. That's the change we should be fighting for. That's the ideal change we need.

i wouldn't get down about it, but EA should consider having a manual online section. 1v1 online, 5v5 online BAPS and clubs all manual.

This year they got half way there with being able to search for manual games and its great.

But that isn't a change. We could search for manual games last year. The only change is the really rather brilliant changes to the interface on the head-2-head online. I agree that there is certainly a happy-compromise. A little change, would make a huge difference, but the game could be improved a lot further with a Forza 3 like assist mechanism.

The prospect which scares me is that the main place the feedback comes from is dominated by ABSOLUTE morons.. and that really does worry me - though I actually feel in terms of responding to feedback they did really well this year (unfortunately the execution wasn't as good as the theory in areas).

@AlaaEG: When I'm next on my 360 I'll add you

 

[RuneEdge]

Yes. You're saying 'don't judge someone just because they're not using manual' and yet you're judging them for using manual claiming they have egos and saying 'don't think your goals or game is better or more real than mine, because it isn't'.

That doesnt make sense. There are some manual users out there that think all assisted players dont have skill or arent playing "real" football. It doesnt matter if you've even played against them or not, you tell them you use assisted and they jump to this comclusion. Its these people that I'm saying that have an ego.
That doesnt mean I'm judging people, if anything it just means I'm labelling the people who are actually doing the judging.
I didnt ever say all manual players did this, only some of them did.
As Rodelero explained so well with the Forza 3 example, FIFA doesnt benefit manual users over assisted in the way Forza does. Maybe if you mastered manual passing to the extreme then maybe you might be able to pull off something you might not have been able to do on assisted. All playing on manual does is give you an extra level of difficulty to achieve the same result. I can understand the view that when two manual users play, the game is more enjoyable because of the reasons already mentioned here (fewer goals, more cautious approach, etc), but if you had to play an assisted player and you purposely chose manual, why would you have done that other than to tell yourself that you had to work harder to play the game?

 

[johnny_on]

But that isn't a change. We could search for manual games last year. The only change is the really rather brilliant changes to the interface on the head-2-head online. I agree that there is certainly a happy-compromise. A little change, would make a huge difference, but the game could be improved a lot further with a Forza 3 like assist mechanism.

The prospect which scares me is that the main place the feedback comes from is dominated by ABSOLUTE morons.. and that really does worry me - though I actually feel in terms of responding to feedback they did really well this year (unfortunately the execution wasn't as good as the theory in areas).

@AlaaEG: When I'm next on my 360 I'll add you

If assisted one on ones went wide all the time and passes went astray all the time the kids wouldn't play it they would say it was broke then EA dont sell as many copies. So its not gonna happen

I think the best they can do is admit they have a split in users and give each a way of only playing against those players.

Either that or have two games, that wont happen either although we did have ISS and PES side by side.

Lets face it all those assisted/pressure players really should be given the Wii edition anyway.

 

[Radiation]

That doesnt make sense. There are some manual users out there that think all assisted players dont have skill or arent playing "real" football. It doesnt matter if you've even played against them or not, you tell them you use assisted and they jump to this comclusion. Its these people that I'm saying that have an ego.
That doesnt mean I'm judging people, if anything it just means I'm labelling the people who are actually doing the judging.
I didnt ever say all manual players did this, only some of them did.

As Rodelero explained so well with the Forza 3 example, FIFA doesnt benefit manual users over assisted in the way Forza does. Maybe if you mastered manual passing to the extreme then maybe you might be able to pull off something you might not have been able to do on assisted. All playing on manual does is give you an extra level of difficulty to achieve the same result. I can understand the view that when two manual users play, the game is more enjoyable because of the reasons already mentioned here (fewer goals, more cautious approach, etc), but if you had to play an assisted player and you purposely chose manual, why would you have done that other than to tell yourself that you had to work harder to play the game?

Hmmmmm... yes you didn't say 'all manual players blah blah. But you also didn't actually say 'some of the manual players think...' as well. You may have meant that but you didn't say that, so you can hardly bring that in now and expect me to just roll over and say 'oh well you were in the right all along, what a silly boy I was to not have known what you 'meant all along'. Damn my inability to mind read.

Labelling someone as something isn't judging them? Really? You're forming an assumption or an opinion that manual players are doing this and that and that they have egos. That clearly is judging them. Now you've brought in the 'oh well I never said 'all' of them, I only meant just those who have basically admitted they have egos'. Well it didn't sound that way but whatever.

I was only replying to your posts because you said that a goal scored on manual doesn't make it any better than the same goal scored on assisted which is incorrect. I don't have any idea about the rest of the stuff like people playing each other online with different control schemes as I've not experienced that and won't be.

"but if you had to play an assisted player and you purposely chose manual, why would you have done that other than to tell yourself that you had to work harder to play the game?"

I have no idea why others pick manual to play against assisted players. I assume they'd prefer to play other manual players but they can't find many or at least couldn't last year so they had to play assisted people or no one.

I'd pick manual now just because that's what I'm used to. If I went back to assisted and the game was aiming my passes and shots so I was seeing things happen that I didn't want to it would do my head in. I enjoy seeing that the keeper is closer to one post than the other so there is a gap and knowing that if I aim it right I can get the ball into the goal right there where I actually want it to go, where it makes sense to be aiming it at. On assisted the game aims it wherever it wants. Sometimes right at the keepers body, sometimes wide, sometimes over, sometimes it hits the post and some times it goes in.

The old PES used to fill me with delight because it just seemed to have this ability to do what you were thinking. You'd see a player making a run and when you passed towards him it went to him (not like in Fifa or PES these days where it goes to someone next to him or closer than him who is marked), or if you saw a gap in the goals you'd press shoot and the game aimed at the gap more often than somewhere else. Fifa on assisted doesn't do that.
Another example is seeing a gap in the defence now and knowing that I can actually aim a pass through that gap and onto the wing right into the path of a winger who is sprinting down. Something which is near to impossible on assisted. Sure you can try and use a through ball but they have more pace that a pass and tend to roll and roll. On assisted you would press pass and the game would end up directing it at the player running on the wing and it would hit the defender standing in between you and that player.

=================
I don't think you get the same result as assisted by playing on manual at all. Your shots for one don't get curl added onto them without you asking so no more shots curling wide because the game decided that that shot shouldn't go in. Also shots taken at a bad angle or off balance aren't auto corrected by the game and turned into on target power blasters. You could argue that that's not good, it's stopping you from scoring but for someone who wants realism in their goals they don't want to see their player side footing a ball and the ball leaving his foot like a rocket and curling as if they had laced the ball on the outside of their boot.

Manual allows you to bypass the help the game offers and do it yourself allowing you to experience not only the same gameplay as someone on assisted gets (albeit with more difficulty, which fades after time to the point where now I'm knocking the ball around with passes without even having to think too hard about the aim.) but also allow you to do extra things impossible on assisted due to the game aiming things for you or deciding that a particular shot should go wide as you kick it. Sure manual shots are going to be scripted to a degree as well but you won't experience the 'lots of curl' shots unless you add the curl yourself.

Crosses on assisted seem to curl themselves, they go to the back post more often than they go to the front post of penalty spot or man and other times they curl right over the top of the nets like you kicked the ball with your weak foot with your eyes closed. On manual those things don't happen as often. If you want a front post cross you get the power right and it;s there. On assisted even a low powered cross zooms over everyone's head to the back post.

If someone chooses to play an assisted player and gets beat then it's tough. It was their choice so they knew they might lose. Though they're still welcome in my book to then say something like 'damn that was a hard 2-0 loss, I was on manual as he was on assisted so he had an advantage'. It's a fact they're stating so it can' be wrong. If they then comment how the assisted guy just ping ponged the ball around and spammed cut backs and long range shots hoping the games scripted nature would pay off and give him the '2 in every 20 shots result in a goal' pay off. Again, that's pretty much just stating fact.

So I don't see how they should be labelled as someone who clearly only picked that control scheme because he's an egotistical manual snob. We may well have people here who do pick it just to be able to rub it other peoples faces but I've not seen any of them and if that's the reason they're picking it then they're either going to be crap at it (because they're doing it for the wrong reasons so might not actually have the ability to pull it off) or they actually are that... damn... good.

 

[AlaaEG]

Lets face it all those assisted/pressure players really should be given the Wii edition anyway.

Classic!

 

[RuneEdge]

I was only replying to your posts because you said that a goal scored on manual doesn't make it any better than the same goal scored on assisted which is incorrect.

When I say the goal isnt any better or real I'm talking about in the game, not in your head. Whether its a manual goal or a assisted goal, its gonna look the same (assuming we're talking about two similar looking goals). You dont get rewarded more points, it doesnt look better on your TV, you dont get some kind of message flashing on your screen saying WELL DONE FOR USING MANUAL. The only satisfaction you get is knowing you had full control of it instead of the CPU doing half the work. At the end of the day, this is only a game. And you win by playing football, not by seeing who has more control over their virtual player over the other. Atleast this is my way of thinking anyway. I only play to win and to have fun. I currently use semi and the moment I feel I can benefit from manual, I wont hesitate to switch over. But I'm not gonna jump into the deep end with manual just because people think its more "right" or that it makes you an elite player.
Now if you're using manual cuz you can pull off passes that assisted players cant then fine. What annoys me is when your opponent uses assisted and all of a sudden you have a problem with it. Cuz while you're having to think and work for every pass, the opponent is ping pong-ing the ball in little triangles around your player. And this is where the ego comes in. Cuz theres nothing wrong with having manual vs manual matches with other people. But the moment an opponent uses assisted, why dont you use it too? Like I said before, when its its manual vs assisted, its the manual player handicapping himself, not the assisted player with an unfair advantage. In simple terms, use whatever works for you, and if you dont like what the opponent is using then tough shit cuz you're entitled to use it too.
Another very similar example of this issue is when people were abusing very offensive winger formations and cut backs in PES5 onwards online. Hundreds of people moaned about it (including me) until I realised there were three ways to deal with this situation. The first one was to stick to my normal game plan because I thought it was the right or "ethical" way to play. The second option was to think hard and come up with a way to counter attack this strategy (which lead me to start man marking their wingers tighter, using manual offside traps, working on my defensive pressuring, etc, and even purposely trying to injure some of their players ). I wouldnt always win but I got some satisfaction out of preventing them from abusing the same tricks again and again. The third option was to mimic their style so that I was just as effective and basically nullifying their tactical advantage.
I used to always go with the first option and used to beat more average players with ease until I faced one of those cut back kings and always got my ass handed to me. At the end of the game I used to always be frustrated cuz I'd be stringing together a lot more passes, had more possession, more attempts on goal, etc, and then he'd get one quick break and score with a cut back for the win. And even though I had lost, I'd still tell myself "You're still better than him. He got lucky. See? You had more passes and possession and everything. It just wasnt your day, blah blah blah." Sometimes I'd even try to tell the opponent how I feel but they either didnt care or couldnt understand what I was saying cuz they spoke a different language (which frustrated me a little more ). But the truth is, this was my ego talking here. I mean, I just lost. The game only understands winning and losing. If I was gonna be reflecting on the game, I should have been looking at my opponent and thinking "that guy just kicked my ass. I need to know how I can play more like him so I that I can kick other peoples asses too".
Now to me this is the same with the discussion we're having here. I play to win, and if CPU assistance helps me win then I'll take it knowing there are others out there who are also willing to take advantage of it. If a manual player beats me then I'll give full credit where credit's due but don't hate me for using it if I beat you.

 

[Rodelero]

Now if you're using manual cuz you can pull off passes that assisted players cant then fine. What annoys me is when your opponent uses assisted and all of a sudden you have a problem with it. Cuz while you're having to think and work for every pass, the opponent is ping pong-ing the ball in little triangles around your player. And this is where the ego comes in. Cuz theres nothing wrong with having manual vs manual matches with other people. But the moment an opponent uses assisted, why dont you use it too? Like I said before, when its its manual vs assisted, its the manual player handicapping himself, not the assisted player with an unfair advantage. In simple terms, use whatever works for you, and if you dont like what the opponent is using then tough shit cuz you're entitled to use it too.

I don't know why this is difficult for people to get. I don't play on assisted because it's unenjoyable, and unrealistic. So that's why. I want to play on manual and I shouldn't be disadvantaged by that choice (in fact, should I be good enough, I should be advantaged by that choice). That's the problem.

Another very similar example of this issue is when people were abusing very offensive winger formations and cut backs in PES5 onwards online. Hundreds of people moaned about it (including me) until I realised there were three ways to deal with this situation. The first one was to stick to my normal game plan because I thought it was the right or "ethical" way to play. The second option was to think hard and come up with a way to counter attack this strategy (which lead me to start man marking their wingers tighter, using manual offside traps, working on my defensive pressuring, etc, and even purposely trying to injure some of their players ). I wouldnt always win but I got some satisfaction out of preventing them from abusing the same tricks again and again. The third option was to mimic their style so that I was just as effective and basically nullifying their tactical advantage.
I used to always go with the first option and used to beat more average players with ease until I faced one of those cut back kings and always got my ass handed to me. At the end of the game I used to always be frustrated cuz I'd be stringing together a lot more passes, had more possession, more attempts on goal, etc, and then he'd get one quick break and score with a cut back for the win. And even though I had lost, I'd still tell myself "You're still better than him. He got lucky. See? You had more passes and possession and everything. It just wasnt your day, blah blah blah." Sometimes I'd even try to tell the opponent how I feel but they either didnt care or couldnt understand what I was saying cuz they spoke a different language (which frustrated me a little more ). But the truth is, this was my ego talking here. I mean, I just lost. The game only understands winning and losing. If I was gonna be reflecting on the game, I should have been looking at my opponent and thinking "that guy just kicked my ass. I need to know how I can play more like him so I that I can kick other peoples asses too".
Now to me this is the same with the discussion we're having here. I play to win, and if CPU assistance helps me win then I'll take it knowing there are others out there who are also willing to take advantage of it. If a manual player beats me then I'll give full credit where credit's due but don't hate me for using it if I beat you.

Mimicing how others play is fine, as long as they are actually doing it.. but once you get into that then you are opening the fattest can of fat worms ever.

It's a vicious circle. If everyone has that mentality then the ENTIRE game turns to crap, and that's the problem. That's the problem. If everyone thought like you (and most people do - or they come to the same conclusion without all the prior more ethnical steps), then everyone just plays the game in its horrible form. That's the problem.

If you play to win, then why not hack, why not glitch? Why do you draw the line prior to those, but still exploit the games mechanics?

The problem for me is that I don't enjoy playing the same game as others. I didn't enjoy through-balling on FIFA 09. I didn't enjoy cut-back-and-pass-acrossing on FIFA 08. I didn't enjoy using Adriano on PES6. So I don't. I play in a way I can enjoy.

I play to win, but I will not sacrifice the games realism for that. Put it this way - if the game isn't realistic enough for me - I'm not going to play it. I would NOT play FIFA 10 online at all if it wasn't for the manual head2heads.

 

[Radiation]

...
until I realised there were three ways to deal with this situation. The first one was to stick to my normal game plan because I thought it was the right or "ethical" way to play. The second option was to think hard and come up with a way to counter attack this strategy (which lead me to start man marking their wingers tighter, using manual offside traps, working on my defensive pressuring, etc, and even purposely trying to injure some of their players ). I wouldnt always win but I got some satisfaction out of preventing them from abusing the same tricks again and again. The third option was to mimic their style so that I was just as effective and basically nullifying their tactical advantage.

There's also a fourth way where you just play with/against friends and therefore never have to resort to their level.

I'm curious as to why you're able to identify players using 'win at all cost' tactics and playing unethically in PES and seeing and knowing that's wrong for them to do those tactics to get the advantage. But you fail to see why manual players will complain about being matched up into games against assisted players and how their is no 'BAP clubs for manual players only' or other modes where manual players are treated as equals.


At the moment they're forced into going back to assisted controls just to be able to play against other players on a level playing field. Once you've become adjusted to manual you can't go back to assisted and enjoy it. So should they play the game and not enjoy it or should they have been allowed equality? Saying that 'they should just do it because they have the option' is not the point. They should be given the chance to play all games modes with other gamers with the same control schemes.

You brought up the point again that scoring a goal for example on manual will not give you something you can't get on assisted. But it can like I said as you can score goals without the game adding curl and or extra power into the shot for you. So you don't get side foot volleys with tons of curl flying into the goal with the power of a laced driven shot ruining the believability of the goal.

Does it look different on the tv? yes. I don't want to see a great goal spoiled by the assisted nature of the game deciding the my side foot volley should have the power of a driven shot and that it was aimed right at the keeper but then it curled past him at the last second.

 

[RuneEdge]

There's also a fourth way where you just play with/against friends and therefore never have to resort to their level.

But then the lack of competition gets boring very quick.

I'm curious as to why you're able to identify players using 'win at all cost' tactics and playing unethically in PES and seeing and knowing that's wrong for them to do those tactics to get the advantage. But you fail to see why manual players will complain about being matched up into games against assisted players and how their is no 'BAP clubs for manual players only' or other modes where manual players are treated as equals.


At the moment they're forced into going back to assisted controls just to be able to play against other players on a level playing field. Once you've become adjusted to manual you can't go back to assisted and enjoy it. So should they play the game and not enjoy it or should they have been allowed equality? Saying that 'they should just do it because they have the option' is not the point. They should be given the chance to play all games modes with other gamers with the same control schemes.

I can see where you're coming from but all I can say to that is, if your manual control skills cant keep up with assisted players then maybe you werent ready for the jump to manual controls in the first place.

You brought up the point again that scoring a goal for example on manual will not give you something you can't get on assisted. But it can like I said as you can score goals without the game adding curl and or extra power into the shot for you. So you don't get side foot volleys with tons of curl flying into the goal with the power of a laced driven shot ruining the believability of the goal.

Does it look different on the tv? yes. I don't want to see a great goal spoiled by the assisted nature of the game deciding the my side foot volley should have the power of a driven shot and that it was aimed right at the keeper but then it curled past him at the last second.

I dont remember you bringing up that bit in bold before. If you did then my bad. But the point was, if two people scored two identical goals, what would the manual player gain from it that the assisted player didnt? Nothing (Other than a ego boost).

 

[Rodelero]

I can see where you're coming from but all I can say to that is, if your manual control skills cant keep up with assisted players then maybe you werent ready for the jump to manual controls in the first place.

If this were true then no-one I've ever met or talked to could 'jump to manual'. The advantages are too large with assisted to be countered by the added control of manual.

Assisted is fundamentally more effective than manual, and that is the true problem.

I dont remember you bringing up that bit in bold before. If you did then my bad. But the point was, if two people scored two identical goals, what would the manual player gain from it that the assisted player didnt? Nothing (Other than a ego boost)

Why call it an 'ego boost', which is a pretty cynical term for it. I'd call it a sense of actual achievement personally..

 

[ant0n]

If assisted one on ones went wide all the time and passes went astray all the time the kids wouldn't play it they would say it was broke then EA dont sell as many copies. So its not gonna happen

I think the best they can do is admit they have a split in users and give each a way of only playing against those players.

Either that or have two games, that wont happen either although we did have ISS and PES side by side.

Lets face it all those assisted/pressure players really should be given the Wii edition anyway.

I do not see how making assisted more like PES would be a bad thing. These 14 year olds don't have lives already to be begin with so they will still continue to get the game unless by some miracle PES surpasses FIFA.Why does Forza 3 sell so many copies? It's a sim and it still sells really well. I do not see how FIFA would be any different.

 

[serkanozen]

I think manual control is not that realistic. With manual control you bypass the abilties of the player you are using . The ability to finish a pass depends on user.Xavi becomes same as a standard player apart from dribbling skills as long as you used manual controls good.Also in manual controls power gauge rises too slow it is a disadvantage and it is unrealistic I should give a pass when ı want too. And ı dont think ping pong passing is unrealistic in real football it does not happen because usually defense does not allow it not that because players can not do it

 

[ant0n]

I can see where you're coming from but all I can say to that is, if your manual control skills cant keep up with assisted players then maybe you werent ready for the jump to manual controls in the first place.

Wow. Just Wow. Have you played anything other than assisted before?

I dont remember you bringing up that bit in bold before. If you did then my bad. But the point was, if two people scored two identical goals, what would the manual player gain from it that the assisted player didnt? Nothing (Other than a ego boost).

The manual player proves he's got some actual skillz unlike the assisted player who proves he can press a button, aim in a general direction and let the CPU do the rest.

That's why the manual goal is better than the assisted goal. Because it's harder to do and you don't see the same wonder goal every other game; making it a rarity.

 

[ant0n]

I think manual control is not that realistic. With manual control you bypass the abilties of the player you are using . The ability to finish a pass depends on user.Xavi becomes same as a standard player apart from dribbling skills as long as you used manual controls good.Also in manual controls power gauge rises too slow it is a disadvantage and it is unrealistic I should give a pass when ı want too. And ı dont think ping pong passing is unrealistic in real football it does not happen because usually defense does not allow it not that because players can not do it

Ignorance at it's finest. Since when is ping pong passing something you see in EVERY goddamn possession? Neither Barcelona nor Arsenal can do that in every possession. And when they DO do it every pass is not perfectly to someone's feet. With manual you can string a good one touch attack once or at the very most twice a game on average which is realistic. Not every possession.

Also have you tried manual controls in FIFA 10? Because by what you write it sounds like you haven't