Football & Coronavirus

OBH

OBH

PESadvocate
6 March 2019
Tottenham
I really, really wanted to know everyones opinion on what should be done about this season after games have been delayed into further notice. I appreciate everyone’s health and safety is of the utmost importance, but I find the discussion regarding how, or if, the PL will be finished to be absolutely fascinating:

Personally, I just don’t see how anything other than a null and void season is fair. If there was still a title race to be decided then this wouldn’t even be a debate. It’s such a mad situation to be in that It’s Liverpool dominance that actually makes this decision a hundred times more difficult. Yes, it’ll be criminal for Liverpool and their fans, I would fuming if it was my own team, but while it would be unfair to not crown Liverpool champions it would be equally unfair to relegate Bournemouth on goal difference, or even worse; to relegate Aston Villa despite having a game in hand & being only 2 points from safety.... Yes, the title may be only 6 points from being decided, but everything else is still up for grabs. To end the season now purely to benefit Liverpool is so bitterly unfair to everybody else (well, almost, I’m sure Leicester won’t mind).

If I had to guess what would happen, I’d say that the season finale will be delayed till August, then the following season (2021) would begin in February. This way we can still finish this season, and have managed to gain something from this episode by making sure we are already in sync for the Qatar World Cup which will be taking place during the rest of Europe’s winter break. Working out a way to restructure the tournament back to its original dates would be looked at in the future.

From a purely sporting perspective this dilemma does give European football the opportunity to sync timetables (regarding winter breaks, transfer windows etc), should leagues and broadcasters wish to do so. Of course everyone’s health is paramount, but again, purely focusing on football; there is something that can be gained from this, and set the sport up to be better and more secure going forwards.

I’d love to know your thoughts.
 
Here's my opinion, for better or for worse. Please don't take any of it personally, it's a good question, but the whole thing (especially the media angle) makes me angry.

As a fan of a team in deep relegation trouble, whose team would be saved if everything was declared null and void... I think it would be absolutely criminal to make everything null and void. Seriously. I'd rather we were relegated. How can you take all of the effort, the blood sweat and tears that teams have put into fighting for a play-off spot, or to avoid relegation, and make it worthless? Criminal.

To jump to "cancel everything and forget it ever happened, none of these stats and the thousands upon thousands of mini-achievements from various players throughout this 75%-completed season ever really happened" is outrageous. The fact that people are seriously considering it - I just can't believe it. And when A) Karen Brady, who is vice-chairman of B) West Ham who just happen to be in a relegation battle, is C) penning articles about it to drum up support, D) for The Scum newspaper, talking about how important it is that we all get on board with this mass cancellation... It just emboldens my belief that it's the wrong thing to do.

My fear is that it will be the headline of every newspaper, and every caveman across the country (I am absolutely not accusing you of this BTW) will bang on about it, like how VAR is some establishment tool of control that needs to be clubbed to death, and that Liverpool have cheated their way to the top thanks to it - because statistics and, let's face it, facts, just don't fucking matter any more. So, I do think it'll happen. And it'll be evil if it does, IMO.

It seems like there are only two answers being presented to us - cancel everything, or delay indefinitely and mess up schedules beyond repair. Why? Life is imperfect, and things can change. Dates can move around. Seasons don't have to end on certain dates forever. Global footballing bodies can work together. Jesus, games could even be played behind closed doors in sterilised environments, with all players tested beforehand. Extreme example, but there are things to try, and more answers than this.

Do we need an urgent answer now? Today? When we're still in the middle of this thing? When we don't know what the situation will look like in a month's time? This modern world is all about LET'S SORT THIS NOW and knowing how complicated this whole thing is, it's just completely wrong.

Can we not just get through this crisis, and talk about it then, with a lot more knowledge, and having had a lot more time to think about this? Let's all take a collective break, stop looking at our phone every five minutes, stop moaning that there's no football to watch, and calm down. Then think about this later, when the facts become clear.

We have a virus that's spreading like wildfire, and news has just broken that Northern Ireland is closing schools for "at least sixteen weeks". If that's what we're looking at before something resembling normality is restored, then holy shit.

And yet, some football league matches have actually gone ahead today, according to Football Focus this morning. (Which is ridiculous, by the way - human life has to come first, and I find this utterly irresponsible.)

China has pretty much eradicated it now - well, there are five cases a day compared to hundreds. So there is an end in sight. It's a way off, but it's there, the light is at the end of the tunnel.

So who knows what to expect, and what the timelines look like, for each country? It's impossible to say.

Could we be in a situation in a couple of months' time where domestic clubs in certain countries could commit to twice-a-week games or similar, blast through every remaining game and cut down the off-season, delaying the start of the next season slightly and compressing the next season to finish at a normal time? Yes, that would favour the clubs with greater depth this season, but THERE IS NO PERFECT ANSWER (which nobody seems willing to accept), and 75% of a normal season combined with a 25% rushed, unfair season is a HELL OF A LOT better in my eyes than throwing away everything that every player has worked so hard to do up to this point.

I would even argue that a better solution would be to just skip the entirety of next season, finishing the remaining games when possible and starting again next August. That to me is a more sane answer than "just call this season null and void". So that should tell you just how stupid an idea I think it is.

One thing I didn't even think about - which is why I think guys like us shouldn't even be talking about this like we're in any way qualified - is the contracts. Miles Jacobsen from the Football Manager team tweeted earlier today that he thinks it'll be a null-and-void situation, purely because of player contracts. You can't legally say to these guys "yeah, the expiry date on your contract is June 30th, but the season was moved, so you're still our player".

But I still think, if that was the case, you could offer emergency contract extensions and for those that refused to sign them, well, you'd have to do without them. Again, I consider that 100x better than making an entire season pointless. Players fighting for their club, injuring themselves, for no reason. If I was a player, I'd be disgusted if that was thrown away.
 
Ha, I hadn't read this before now, but it's just appeared on my Twitter timeline. So basically - this thread:

 
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@Chris Davies That was fascinating reading your opinion, considering where your own club is positioned.

Personally I think one huge problem is that not only is there is no right or wrong answer, but the problem goes to much deeper than just the competition itself - lower league teams rely on gate receipts and some have 5 of the remaining 6 games at home. Local economies relying on fans for business, and so on, and so on. There are just so many facets to consider.

I know it isn’t as basic as this, but I see it as 3 options:

1) end the season today, awarding current positions as final
2) end season as of today, and write it off as null and void
3) delay the season and complete at a later date.

Of course, I’d MUCH prefer the season to be delayed, I think everything should be done to complete the remaining games, and restructure the dates of everything else afterwards to fit around the changes.

But IF the season is to be cancelled now, I hope we do what the Bundesliga are reported to be prepared to do: cancel it as null and void, but have the promoted teams included next year, so for one season only the PL/Bundesliga has 2/3 extra teams. This way those teams who have performed well get the financial benefit, if not the recorded success of winning, and those teams due to be relegated won’t be penalised without a chance to save themselves. You just can’t relegate teams with games in hand, that would be so hugely unfair, and you can’t have one decisions for one team and a different decision for another. With this method the only real losers are the trophy winners, and I can’t personally see a way of limiting the damage further without doing something contradictory or unfair.

I do totally understand opposite views to this, I would just feel really uncomfortable seeing teams at the bottom be penalised unjustly. Villa in particular would be brutal
 
Chris Davies said:
Ha, I hadn't read this before now, but it's just appeared on my Twitter timeline. So basically - this thread:

Click to expand...
Ha, I do worry I come across as jumping the gun. I’m just looking ahead as I find the topic interesting.

It would far more beneficial for none of this to happen, but it would be foolish to not at least consider possibilities.
 
It is a very difficult decision to make.

I think the two most 'realistic' options are: leave the positions as they are today or, what I think is more fair, make a play-off for each situation, a single match tie on a neutral field. For example, that the last 6 in the PL table play a play-off. I also agree on what @Chris Davies says, which is to play them all but delaying tournaments. It seems like the best decision to me but I truly doubt that the authorities will take that path, because probably millions of dollars would be lost by readjusting schedules of tournaments like the EURO o the Copa América.
 
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ryudek said:
It is a very difficult decision to make.

I think the two most 'realistic' options are: leave the positions as they are today or, what I think is more fair, make a play-off for each situation, a single match tie on a neutral field. For example, that the last 6 in the PL table play a play-off. I also agree on what @Chris Davies says, which is to play them all but delaying tournaments. It seems like the best decision to me but I truly doubt that the authorities will take that path, because probably millions of dollars would be lost by readjusting schedules of tournaments like the EURO o the Copa América.
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I do like playing some kind of playoff to decide, but then you may the situation where one team would have been playing the top 6 teams while another would be playing the bottom six. They’d feel hard done by as they’d believe they had a better chance of reaching safety.

Also, Liverpool are still not champions, and while it’s so INCREDIBLY unlikely that they’d throw it away, it’s still technically unfair to make some teams play a game for their final result, and just assume others and give it to them.

I guess, in my head anyway, the ruling has to apply to all. The idea of different decisions based on a teams current circumstances doesn’t sit right with me at all.
 
Very difficult question.
Here in Belgium no sports events until 3th of april.
I would suggest to taker that time to brainstorm for an elegant solution.
What Chris writes about Karen Brady is disgusting (not Chris of course, but Brady): people are dying and panicking and she is scheming for herself. Unfit to work for top rank football club. The English FA should have the guts to disqualify her.

The problem in England is not the champion. Liverpool deserve to be champion.
As a Spurs fan i also think the 4 best ranked clubs should play the CL next season.

Relegation is the problem. Germany's solution: no relgation but only promotion seems the best possible solution...

But the FA's should make indepent pannels to brainstorm about fair solutions (but does that exist, an independent pannel that is also recognized by everybody to be indenpendent?).

Difficult, very difficult.

And off topic, but important: good luck to everybody. Hope you stay healthy. Me and my family we are all sick, but apparently (without testing) we don't suffer from Covid19 (corona).
 
Stan said:
Very difficult question.
Here in Belgium no sports events until 3th of april.
I would suggest to taker that time to brainstorm for an elegant solution.
What Chris writes about Karen Brady is disgusting (not Chris of course, but Brady): people are dying and panicking and she is scheming for herself. Unfit to work for top rank football club. The English FA should have the guts to disqualify her.

The problem in England is not the champion. Liverpool deserve to be champion.
As a Spurs fan i also think the 4 best ranked clubs should play the CL next season.

Relegation is the problem. Germany's solution: no relgation but only promotion seems the best possible solution...

But the FA's should make indepent pannels to brainstorm about fair solutions (but does that exist, an independent pannel that is also recognized by everybody to be indenpendent?).

Difficult, very difficult.

And off topic, but important: good luck to everybody. Hope you stay healthy. Me and my family we are all sick, but apparently (without testing) we don't suffer from Covid19 (corona).
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Thanks man. In my country the thing is starting to get out of control and the authorities don't seem to care.
 
South Korea have "test drive throughs" and a test takes like 10 mins. They are prepared, they have the lowest mortality rate currently.

On one hand i can understand the self isolation as thats the best what we can do right now.
On the other hand even the first world governments arent prepared for such pandemic (and its not on the level of mortality like ebola for example), and it shocked the system as they cant take care of so many eldelry and people with weak immune system and due to the self isolation there will be economic recession, soon people will be struggling to put food on the table for their family just because we have to "flatten that line".

In the end the everyday tax paying Joe will suffer as always because most of the countries governments arent prepared at all. And i hate that the media and the governments are going for your conscience, putting all the responsibility on you as an individual now. Have you seen any statements like "hey we f*cked it up, we arent prepared well even tho you paid tons of tax, our fault. but now we need your help as an individual citizen" ? Disgusting.
 
Corona Virus is getting out of hand in my country too. Too bad government didn't take solid measures to contain it and now we're screwed.
 
Where I am is the same type of negligence. They let in tourists from Europe and vice versa, including Italy, as if nothing was going on up until very recently. Didn't even quaratine some people who showed simptoms. And only now that the place got infested, started to shut things down.


Anyway, maybe the world needs a break. Football... I don't care that much - crisis like this puts things in perspective, except Italian Serie A was very nice this season. Hopefully, in the summer things will be ok and they can continue. I wonder what will be with Copa America...

But for now there is tons of older (better) football to catch up on. I downloaded nearly all Champions League 2005/06 playoff matches :D
 
In my earlier post i forgot something very important, perhaps (sadly) the most important factor in football: money.
I hope i'm wrong, but the football powers that be will choose for the solution that generates most money, I have no idea which one that will be, but it will be the deciding factor.

And speaking of wich...i know it's probably idle hope, but perhaps this pandemy will put sone things in perspective and will make life, sports and football more fair. Let's dream that what is happening now has a silver lining and that people will have other priorities than money, but this is probably wishful thinking.

If you know that the Belgian government ordered thousands of mouth masks and they paid for them. The mouth masks should have arrived by friday evening and they still haven't at the moment...human beings are disgusting...
 
I live with my Mother who will be 80 next September and my focus is on keeping her safe. Iceland has dealt with this quite well I think, although with only about 350.000 people in total, it's easier here than in most other countries. Even so, I think we still have the world record of most infections per capita. The idea, as I believe it is in most countries, is to slow the spread down so that the health care system can deal with it. Iceland could have just shut the borders when this thing started, but alas, money talks, and also there would have been no build up of immunity, so it would probably just have postponed the pandemic for us.

I wouldn't be heartbroken if the Prem got scrapped because frankly it's not a priority at this point, but as a Liverpool fan I would prefer they didn't. If they have to, chop the last and unfinished round off and remove those points, so every team has the same amount of games. Relegate no one, but push up 1 or 2 teams.

But just wait and see. The league won't be back on in April, but there is no rush to call it off. Just scrap The Euros or move them to 2021 and have the summer to potentially finish things off.
 
My team (Lazio) was seriously fighting for title for the first time in 20 years or something, probably playing his best football ever, with a group of players loved even more than the guys who won Serie A in 99/00.

I won't hide my disappointment, especially in the first stages of closing, where it was clear it wouldn't have gone away in weeks. I was dreaming this moment since I was a 14-15 years old kid (now I'm 35) and the fantastic era of the Nedved, Nesta, Veron and the others ended. We had many other satisfactions in the years to come, sure, but struggling point to point till the end.. I could already feel the hot of the incoming good season sun on my skin while at the stadium, an ear to the radio for the other teams and eyes on the field to our guys. To see all this go away for something so alien and external to the field itself felt like the stuff of the nightmares, as a football fan. Like a fucking cruel joke.

Anyway, days passed and it all gotten worse by magnitudes. Things are so bad especially in the north (but it could easily become the same all over the country, no idea at the moment), that at this point I can hardly go to football with my mind, at least not in the same way as before. I've heard Uefa today would like to freeze positions as they are, at least for the top teams (so discussion would be different depending on the country for the relegation).. which is kinda fine to me at this point. Even if things would start again in two months for magic (and I'm pretty sure they won't), wouldn't be the same. All I can think about right now is hoping we'll be able to put this whole, tragic situation behind.
 
I also hope this football season wont be cancelled. That would be a terrible decision. Would rather skip the next season altogether and played Euro cup instead.

Ireland is responding surprisingly well IMO. Some actor posted on twitter that all pubs in Ireland were closed 36hrs prior st.patricks day. If irish pubs being closed on st.patricks day will not persuade you how serious the situation is - nothing will.. :LOL:

Personally Im hoping that these tragic events will have some positive impact on the future, in a long run.
People might get into the habit of putting more focus into handwashing and general containment methods, like coughing into the sleeve and so on. Hopefully, in a long run, this might reduce overall number of regular flu cases and spreading of other diseases.
Also - world in general was recently heading into a very dark direction.
So maybe a virus that doesnt care if you are white/black/yellow/rich/poor and doesnt care where are you from might teach people to work together and start seeing things with a bit of a perspective..
 
Chris Davies said:
which is why I think guys like us shouldn't even be talking about this like we're in any way qualified
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Are you serious mate? Do you really think that?.
Worse people than us have stood in front of microphones and said worse things than we might say on an Internet Forum.

I think we can and should voice our opinions freely. We're not determining anything here. Nobody will make any decisions based on what we say here. Our thoughts, our opinions, our views are just as important as anybody else's who aren't in decision-making positions.
The butcher around the corner. The game shop that's 4 blocks away. Your office partner, the one you get along the best with. Or mine. Etc.

I just don't like it when people say we can't talk about stuff because we don't know enough. If anything, we should inform ourselves more. Or talk about it where we can and - if one of us says something stupid, and the next one is more informed on the matter, then correct him and explain him how things are. That's the best way to learn.

We shouldn't be talking about football then. Because none of us have played professionally. Or managed a team beyond Football Manager, PES or FIFA?. And the list could go on and on forever.

Nothing against you Chris, you know that. You know I love you :LOVE:

The Argentine League's Cup has been postponed for 14 days just 10 minutes ago.
Here, in Argentina, things are nowhere near as ugly as they seem to be in Europe. So I think it doesn't make much sense to cancel football, when everybody else is coming and going to work from 6AM in packed-up buses, trains, subs to 7PM in packed-up buses, trains and subs.

Football players are as human as the rest of us. And I think the matches should be played, behind closed doors, in sterilised environments, with only the necessary people involved around them. Not talking about the Premier League in this case, but my country's league. Because, like I said, things aren't out of control here.

Re: EPL - I think that the most fair decision would be to continue the remaining matches in August, and have a tighter schedule from there on.
To rule the current season as null and voice would be unfair to say the least. If anything, EURO 2021 should be postponed even further, if they care so much about the players, so that they won't risk so many injuries from an over-packed up schedule.
 
I was moved by the posts of MadMac, Emroth and Isslander...nice posts. My favourite team in Italy is Atalanta, but i have got some sympathy for Lazio after reading the post.

In this thread nobody has talked about perhaps the most significant factor: the television money. If competitions stop, then i think the TV companies will want part of their money back. This will create huge problems. I'm pretty sure that at least the big competitions will be played until the end and that the Euro 's will postponed or cancelled. If it will be postponed i could well be that the Tournament will not be played in 12 countries.

And like somebody in this thread suggested (Emroth, i think): this will change our lives for ever. This will be the end of free travel (i was disgusted by the footage of British toursits in Spain who kept on drinking despite the lockdown, in Belgium all pubs are closed in the weekend and last weekend lots of Belgian went to Holland to drink, that is also disgusting, it seems people are not aware of the seriousness of the problem we are facing).

Good luck everybody.
 
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I don't see how this will change our lives forever.
I'm taking this whole virus situation as other previous virus such as Influenza, Swine Flu, etc. But worse. Obviously, this one is worse.
But I don't think this will last forever or that it will change the rules forever. Of course prevention and preservation are mandatory for the time being, and I could even see this being extended for a couple of weeks after the virus has been eradicated (we're not even close yet).

But to think this virus came here to establish some kind of new world order, to me, is an apocalyptic perspective that I cannot fathom.

2020 will probably be a historic year (it already is) among all cultures, religions, races, etc. I will be remember it as a big bump along the way. Maybe for the most religious people, this is some kind of message. To others, this is all part of an evil plan that was supposed to be used in the next World War. But for me, it will be a year lost in time. And I hope we can all learn something from this so that it won't be a completely 'lost' year.

Stay safe and inside.
 
I dont think there's anyone here who thinks that way, Chuny..

But its the little things that can have a long term effect. Habits are hard to break, regardless whether they are good habits, or bad habits. Im sure there will be a lot of people who will be coughing in their sleeve as an instinct from now on.

Communities will most likely come out on the other side stronger and bounded more with each other.
Me and the family are in a lockdown now and every day or two we have people knocking at our door, leaving some fresh bread, medicine. I never asked anyone. They just started doing this when they heard that we are sick (and its most likely just a regular flu).

My daughter does Brazilian Jujitsu and WhatsApp jujitsu group is now being used for sharing news and getting supplies to those in lockdown or elderly people who cant go out themselves.

Its those little acts of pure kindness that can have an effect on society in a long run. People will remember those things.

Im as religious as my paracetamol tablets, so I dont really look at any of that from some apocalyptic point of view.

Im just seeing how, during this crisis, a lot of good people really upped their game and everyone is trying to help one another. And this will not be forgotten.
 
Emroth said:
But its the little things that can have a long term effect. Habits are hard to break, regardless whether they are good habits, or bad habits. Im sure there will be a lot of people who will be coughing in their sleeve as an instinct from now on.
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Yeah tell me about it. I basically just told some of my friends to go F themselves because they are organising our usual weekly Tuesday match and I told them they were stupid if they thought this was right or that we were beyond any risk of getting infected or passing the infection on to others. They told me I was overreacting. Our President told us to stay home as much as we can, to reduce social gatherings as much as we can, and a bunch of other stuff, and these guys are planning to play a football match. 14 people. Who knows where each one has been, or who they've been in touch with. FFS.

Also maybe I misinterpreted Stan's post about how this thing would change our lives forever. But I thought he was making it out to be more apocalyptic (i.e: "This will be the end of free travel") than what you are depicting, Em. I'd be more inclined to agree with you, actually.

BTW, I saw what your daughter made for your home (in your Twitter), she really is a lovely little girl @Emroth We can learn so much from children.
 
I didn't mean it to sound apocalyptic, but i can see things change for people who travel in the future.
 
So, anyone ballsing it up as much as we are in Scotland? A weapons-grade shambles.

A resolution was put to the 42 clubs to end the Championship, League One and League Two now, with the league standings as they are. The resolution would enable the Premiership to be called as is, too, with the decision will be made in two weeks. It needed the approval of three quarters of clubs in each league to pass.

My beloved Aberdeen (wanting the league season to be played out whenever), Hearts (currently bottom) and Rangers (second, miles behind Celtic, but really petty) all said they'd vote no. Aberdeen changed their mind. But the league voting was made 10-1 with one abstaining. Turns out Hearts' vote was lost in a spam filter. Shambles.

Leagues One and Two voted in favour, but a few clubs have, publicly or otherwise, that they felt pressured to do so by the SPFL (the league body). Shambles.

In the Championship, there was a vote missing - Dundee's. A crucial one, as it would pass or reject the entire thing. As the deadline passed, it was revealed that clubs were "requested" to vote by 5pm on Friday. It wasn't compulsory to do so, and Dundee have in fact 28 (twenty-eight) days to mull it over, as did all clubs. Shambles.

Leaks of a WhatsApp chat between chairmen suggested that Dundee submitted their 'no' vote but it wasn't received. Photos of their no vote were published by the BBC. The SPFL says it WAS received, but only after Dundee had sent an email saying that vote shouldn't be considered. Shambles.

Now the conspiracy theories have started. Namely by Rangers fans, that Dundee realised their vote would be the deciding one and retracted it at the request of the SPFL and, of course, Celtic. Rangers have asked for the suspension of Neil Doncaster (SPFL CEO), and claim they have evidence of foul play (not pictured). So the SPFL has said, of Rangers and the evidence: put up or shut up. Shambles.

So however Dundee's vote lands remains to be seen. Or will the whole ballot be deemed null and void? There might even be an investigation into the SPFL. Some clubs, like Hearts and Inverness, wanting to avoid relegation or achieve some kind of promotion, want a complete league reconstruction to three leagues of 14 (opposed to the current 12-10-10-10 structure) based on the current standings. That could be a whole new resolution and subsequent ballot. Shambles.

Shambles.
 
Was trying to get my head around wtf is going on in Scotland, thanks for summing it up! A special kind of shambles indeed.

I really hate the idea of any league being null and void or being ended early with current standings, not just because of the team I support but also from a sporting/ocd point of view. :D

I suppose the most important thing is that we don't lose too many clubs, even the top clubs will start to feel the pinch the longer this lack of football goes on.
 
To me, voiding the season shouldn't even be on the table. It'd be a nonsense to consider six months of football pointless.

What I don't understand is this widespread belief that we'll be back up and running in time for the 2020/21 calendar. Who's to say we'll be in the clear in August? And interruption free between then and... whenever the world is vaccinated? We could end up being in the same predicament in a year's time.

I believe a variety of proposals for a shortened 2020/21 season should be agreed. Fewer rounds of fixtures in leagues, removal of group stages in cup competitions, or cup competitions altogether. Play 2019/20 to a conclusion whenever we can and start next season whenever we can. At least a shortened season would be fair and equal.

In Scotland the new, exclusive Sky deal is supposedly a sticking point. It starts in August and Sky want all the coverage from that point forward. Completing this season would mean fulfilling the contractual obligation with BT Sport should it spill into August and I understand the SPFL wants to avoid that mess. So they've replaced it with this mess.

All said, commercial agreements will decide the outcome. The integrity of the competition won't stand in their way.
 
Yeah agree with that, we're about 3/4 the way through this season, it has to take precedent over next season and as you said there is no guarantee we can avoid similar disruptions next season. A shortened season will also have been agreed upon before the season started, which makes it so much better in terms of integrity.

Also the football calendar is clearly not sacred. The next world cup will be played in December which is going to require a lot of rejigging of the calendar for most countries.
 
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